Stealth Fundamentals

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Anvil
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Re: Stealth Fundamentals

#31 Post by Anvil »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:07 pmThe main problem with gradual detection strength is not micromanagement as LienRag pointed out, but GUI. How do you represent in the galaxy map in which areas of your vision you have this or that detection strength? When detection strength is uniform over all your space, you can just use your color empire to represent the areas under detection range. If detection strength also varies, what do you do? A gradient? Give the player a mouse tool to probe detection strength at a certain point in the map? It becomes cumbersome, confusing or both, for not much gain in gameplay.
Well, most of the time the exact value should not be that important. The GUI shows you what you can see and you make your decisions based on that, which is not so much different from now.

Sometimes you may want to know: Can there be an enemy fleet in a specific system? Provided that you know what kinds of ships they use, a tool to tell you the exact value of your detection strength in that system may be helpful.

Regarding the display, how about using equi-strength lines (like height lines on terrain map), possibly combined with a gradient.

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Oberlus
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Re: Stealth Fundamentals

#32 Post by Oberlus »

Anvil wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:34 pm Regarding the display, how about using equi-strength lines (like height lines on terrain map), possibly combined with a gradient.
I don't know. Maybe try opening a feature request at github to see what devs think about it. But better if you first search a bit in the years-old threads where this could have been already discussed and dismissed.

Bobit
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Re: Stealth Fundamentals

#33 Post by Bobit »

I think either of these ways could work (but not both):
  1. Detection strength is DOUBLED and ONLY DOUBLED where you have ship sensors (which are now more expensive and base detection range is higher) or stealth/detection-focused planets or expensive detection-focused buildings. Represented on UI somewhat easily compared to gradient strength, low micro. Credits to anvil I think?
  2. Detection strength is now entirely based on detection range. 200 detection range gives 200 strength at 0uu, 150 at 50uu, etc. No urgent need to represent on UI, just use the ruler, maybe a bit higher micro tho. Credits to alleryn I think? Also Geoff suggested this 5 years ago
Either way every sort of thing should be stealthable. Troop ships / bombardment (at a malus to attacking under shields as said earlier in this thread), planets, mobile defense/bioterror/stargate planets, colony ships, carriers. An empire can stealth everything, but only if they're willing to kill scouts. Or they can invest into stealthing just tall planets very well and never kill scouts. Or they can stealth only their scouts and use them to warp in the whole army.

As for stealthing supply, I don't see the point compared to just using global stockpiles and stargates. Also I see no reason that stockpiles shouldn't ignore supply.

I must confess I'm not really sure how stealthed carriers in combat work.
Last edited by Bobit on Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Oberlus
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Re: Stealth Fundamentals

#34 Post by Oberlus »

Bobit wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:56 pm Detection strength is DOUBLED and ONLY DOUBLED where you have ship sensors (which are now more expensive and base detection range is higher) or stealth/detection-focused planets or expensive detection-focused buildings. Represented on UI somewhat easily compared to gradient strength, low micro.
Dunno. Could work. Need to think about it.

Bobit wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:56 pm Detection strength is now entirely based on detection range. 200 detection range gives 200 strength at 0uu, 150 at 50uu, etc. No urgent need to represent on UI, just use the ruler, maybe a bit higher micro tho.
So, in order to find out what spots within your space can have a hidden enemy you need to:
- Check out possible stealth values of your enemy ships (e.g. they could have 45 or 65 stealth)
- Check out the detection distance from each of your systems with planets or ships (this have a 150 detection planet, this a 130, this 75 from the scout...)
- Calculate for each previous system de minimum distance from it at which a ships could stay hidden (here, with 150, could be 105 or 85, there could be 85 or 65...)
- Cross all previous information to find out the systems that are outside your detection.

I'll pass :lol:

Bobit wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:56 pm I must confess I'm not really sure how stealthed carriers in combat work.
Same as other combatants: firing a weapon or launching fighters makes them visible on next combat round (they always launch fighters on round 1, so they are always targettable on round 2).

Bobit
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Re: Stealth Fundamentals

#35 Post by Bobit »

Hm. You're right, #2 would need UI representation and not just a ruler. Though the UI representation wouldn't be that complicated. Just press "+" and "-" to adjust your "displayed detection strength". E.g. if you have "displayed detection strength" set to 50, it will render all of your detection ranges as 50 less. Still, it might be more tedious than the alternatives.

ooooo I like those combat stealth mechanics

I don't really like the idea of just removing stealth and replacing it with imaginary stealth ships, because it removes all the different kinds of stealth ships you can naturally make with the current ship designer. I don't know how population ships would be very different from migrating planets, it seems potentially redundant and less intuitive.

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nox
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Re: Stealth Fundamentals

#36 Post by nox »

I think another way to improve the stealth mechanics is to add the ability to track stealth ships. Right now if a ship has low stealth it is always seen, and if a ship has high stealth it is only seen in later rounds of combat. I think that if a ship has a medium level of stealth, then opposing empires should not be find it, but they can follow it if they know exactly where it is.

With this, a ship or fleet could get one, but only one, surprise attack. When it attacks, then the opposing empire will be able to follow it with it's sensors. The ship will then have to regain stealth by either 1) leaving the enemy's detection range 2) flying to an ion storm to temporarily boost the fleet's stealth or 3) destroying ships / capturing planets to remove the enemy's detection ability

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Oberlus
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Re: Stealth Fundamentals

#37 Post by Oberlus »

nox wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:51 pm I think another way to improve the stealth mechanics is to add the ability to track stealth ships. Right now if a ship has low stealth it is always seen, and if a ship has high stealth it is only seen in later rounds of combat. I think that if a ship has a medium level of stealth, then opposing empires should not be find it, but they can follow it if they know exactly where it is.

With this, a ship or fleet could get one, but only one, surprise attack. When it attacks, then the opposing empire will be able to follow it with it's sensors. The ship will then have to regain stealth by either 1) leaving the enemy's detection range 2) flying to an ion storm to temporarily boost the fleet's stealth or 3) destroying ships / capturing planets to remove the enemy's detection ability
I really like this idea, to help get rid of the all or nothing stealth.
Something similar could be implemented by giving a malus to stealth to ships after combat, which gets removed after a few turns. High-enough stealth ships will still be hidden after combat.
For the scanning tracking, I don't know if it can be done with current engine.

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