Research observations, experience => ideas

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Ophiuchus
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Re: Research observations, experience => ideas

#16 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:57 am So when you get the tech shortly after reaching minimum cost C you are lucky, and when you reached 2C you get it for sure (unlucky).
...

FreeOrion could do something similar. This would allow for randomization of how fast you get the tech, but not what the tech gives you.
What is the gameplay benefit? What I can see is less predictability in the tech race - mainly for all-or-nothing stuff like stealth and detection.
As a side note: adding randomization on one side would be enough (certainly do not randomize effect AND cost)
On the balancing side this would introduce another layer of complexity - the number of tech steps matters for the variability (more smaller steps -> more predictable).
I can imagine a benefit if applying it to theories in the theory/application/improvement scheme. One strategy would be to invest in multiple theories at the same time and if you are lucky you get one of those early and then rush research in that branch (delaying or stopping to research in the other theories).
Oberlus wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:57 am Maybe each tech category could have a cost multiplier, ...
Lets do themes first before playing with the tech tree mechanics I think.
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Oberlus
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Re: Research observations, experience => ideas

#17 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:02 am What is the gameplay benefit? What I can see is less predictability in the tech race - mainly for all-or-nothing stuff like stealth and detection.
As a side note: adding randomization on one side would be enough (certainly do not randomize effect AND cost)
The benefit? I don't see it either, apart from some players stating they would like it more. Randomness has a part on perceived joy from games.
I don't see the benefit of not having randomness there, either.

IMO, randomizing effects is a bad idea, as bad as to wanting to restart the game (or quit from a MP game) when you don't get what you want.

Lets do themes first before playing with the tech tree mechanics I think.
Themes/categories would be the same here, implementation would work for both with no or very few changes required.

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human2
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Re: Research observations, experience => ideas

#18 Post by human2 »

I know what would make the research tree more realistic. You guys are developers. Maybe you're lucky but most developers I know can't do graphics. And most graphic people can't code. I think researching some techs should make it harder to research others. I know an empire can have all types of people, but I do believe that as a whole, using the current nations on earth, each nation has it's niche and personality that determines what type of economy and research it can conduct.

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Oberlus
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Re: Research observations, experience => ideas

#19 Post by Oberlus »

human2 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:02 pm I think researching some techs should make it harder to research others.
I think that suggestion does make sense and could go well with Vezzra's idea of Origins.
Some origins could have all categories/themes cost the same (medium costs), and other origins could make certain categories/themes cheaper and the rest more expensive. The ones being cheaper could be the first one/s that the empire starts researching, or fixed ones (the latter, which would be more restrictive on gameplay, could allow even greater discounts than the former, that is more flexible).

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Vezzra
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Re: Research observations, experience => ideas

#20 Post by Vezzra »

human2 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:02 pmI think researching some techs should make it harder to research others.
That has been suggested before (among others by me). A very simple but effective way would be to multiply tech costs by a factor that increases the more techs you have already researched.

Other things that could be done is e.g. what Oberlus suggested above (which is a very good idea IMO, and certainly one of the things my Origins idea can/should be applied to). Then you can make it so that adopting certain techs makes specific other techs more expensive (e.g. when you decide to commit to a "organic" research path, the "robotic" one becomes more expensive because for your empire "organic" tech become the "natural way of thinking", and "robotic" tech mor of an alien concept, so to speak, etc.).

I think we definitely should do something along these lines.

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Grummel7
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Re: Research observations, experience => ideas

#21 Post by Grummel7 »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:57 am FreeOrion could do something similar. This would allow for randomization of how fast you get the tech, but not what the tech gives you.
IIRC, it was even more complicated and heavily supported micro-managing, because you could distribute your RP freely between the current research projects and change the distribution every turn.
The following could might for FO:
  • A tech needs a minimum of N x X RP.
  • Then you have a 1 / N chance to get it after spending N x X RP.
  • If it did not work, you'll have to spend another X RP to get a 2 / N chance, etc.
E.g. for the Automatic History Analyzer you have a 50% chance to get it after 2 x 4 RP, and a 100% chance after spending 3 x 4 RP.
As long as you have enough RP, you will always spend X RP for that research until you get it, just like now, only the number of rounds is not known exactly.
Oberlus wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:57 am
human2 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:32 am you could pick tech balances, like favors military tech, favors psionic tech, regardless of the race the player picks. Basically you pick the way it's balanced.
Maybe each tech category could have a cost multiplier, default to 1.0, adjustable via game rules before game start, allowing also random values between 0.75 and 1.5.
Random variations would be nice. Personally I like games where the rules are known at the beginning of the game, but always slightly different, so that you have to adjust your playing to them.

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Grummel7
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Re: Research observations, experience => ideas

#22 Post by Grummel7 »

Going back to the original discussion, this is what I think:

I think the best way to avoid players always repeating more or less the same research queue is to provide alternatives. In FO, the various hulls do that to a certain degree. Oberlus' tall vs. wide idea goes into that direction. Weapons could also be a little less linear. With bonus giving techs it's a little more difficult to design, but not impossible to create alternative paths, too.

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