Missile/Projectile Weapons

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labgnome
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#61 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 10:25 pm
labgnome wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 9:58 pm So I sort of got missiles to work, but I haven't been able to test them out. Apparently my computer doesn't like when I try to point the default folder to another directory. So I tried copying the default folder into my Free Orion directory. However it was very buggy. It's crashed on me twice and won't display the tech tree properly in the tree mode. But At least I got to design a ship with missiles.
That is probably current test build, its buggy (sorry, should have mentioned that). Has nothing to do with the missiles folder.

Not sure if the week before was fine (or two weeks before).
So my initial report is that missiles are quite effective against early game monsters, and also that I'm getting recovered fighters (which I don't think I should be getting) messages from the battle report.
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#62 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 11:49 pm So my initial report is that missiles are quite effective against early game monsters, and also that I'm getting recovered fighters (which I don't think I should be getting) messages from the battle report.
I mention that in the PR description. It is FOCS-only, so the missiles are actually fighters, please ignore that.

There is also some other stuff because of that "partial" implementation. For example that the missiles are still in the air (and are valid targets) even in the turn of "explosion" and afterwards. The possibility of ending up with illegal fighter/missile combinations. What i found most irritating was that you cant see the number currently stored missiles directly.

These issues are known and would be not in a full implementation. The design question to be answered if the missile system works more or less for you if you ignore those ugly spots.

Code: Select all

Ugly
* in order to not change current code, part exclusions do not work if adding fighter parts afterwards
* no UI currently to show missile storage
* missiles will provide cover after bout 3 even if "exploded"
* unconditional launching
* no specific resupply condition
* are shown as fighters in combat log and also get recaptured at end of battle
* damage is not scaled accordingly to number of bouts
E.g. are the following acceptable (to you)
  • missiles and fighters cant be combined in the same ship design
  • missiles hit in a fixed single bout
  • the b1) launch b2) flying (can be shot down) b3) do damage if not already shot down
  • are the munitions and launch numbers in the right ballpark? munitions/storage: launch-bay-parts*4 + 16 ; launch: launch-bay-parts*4
  • having to have hangar parts for munitions
  • only one hangar parts for extra munitions
  • .. other stuff you notice..
Thank you for the feedback, keep it coming!
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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labgnome
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#63 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:16 am E.g. are the following acceptable (to you)
  • missiles and fighters cant be combined in the same ship design
  • missiles hit in a fixed single bout
  • the b1) launch b2) flying (can be shot down) b3) do damage if not already shot down
  • are the munitions and launch numbers in the right ballpark? munitions/storage: launch-bay-parts*4 + 16 ; launch: launch-bay-parts*4
  • having to have hangar parts for munitions
  • only one hangar parts for extra munitions
  • .. other stuff you notice..
Thank you for the feedback, keep it coming!
Missiles+Fighters should be possible, but I probably wouldn't go for that combo myself.

I think so. Maybe if there are undetonated missiles, and we have 4 bouts of combat missiles also do damage on bout 4? However this is not a necessary feature to me.

There were lots of missiles, I actually feel bad for the Krill Swarm I went after. Maybe too much for something you get after aggression? More playtesting is needed.

I think that @Oberlus is pretty set on missiles having to have a hanger part, I was originally against the idea, but I'm not completely opposed now. So if it makes it easier go for it.

I don't really know that I have an opinion on only one hanger part for munitions.

I'm going to try a more stable build later this week. The version I currently am trying out is barely playable. Plus my ship got blown up because fighters (and thus missiles) can't target planets.
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#64 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 3:26 am fighters (and thus missiles) can't target planets.
Actually that gets defined in the combatTargets condition in FOCS. E.g. the heavy bombers which are enabled since a few ticks also target planets. Missiles could also if we wanted.
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#65 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:17 pm
labgnome wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 3:26 am fighters (and thus missiles) can't target planets.
Actually that gets defined in the combatTargets condition in FOCS. E.g. the heavy bombers which are enabled since a few ticks also target planets. Missiles could also if we wanted.
I think that if we go with my starter "rockets" or Oberlus' high yield "torpedoes" they should definitely be able to target planets. I don't know about the anti-swarm kinetic "missiles" proposed.
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#66 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:41 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:17 pm
labgnome wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 3:26 am fighters (and thus missiles) can't target planets.
Actually that gets defined in the combatTargets condition in FOCS. E.g. the heavy bombers which are enabled since a few ticks also target planets. Missiles could also if we wanted.
I think that if we go with my starter "rockets" or Oberlus' high yield "torpedoes" they should definitely be able to target planets. I don't know about the anti-swarm kinetic "missiles" proposed.
The question is mostly which niche those fill. This also depends on how missiles behave in combat - in which bout(s) the missiles can be shot down and in which bouts the missiles do damage (which depends on the implementation).

With the bout-one launch, bout-two fly, bout-three do-damage interceptors can down the missiles and the launching party has a chance to reduce chaff in bout one and two (especially fighter chaff in bout two if fighters are part of the targeting condition).
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#67 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:19 pm The question is mostly which niche those fill. This also depends on how missiles behave in combat - in which bout(s) the missiles can be shot down and in which bouts the missiles do damage (which depends on the implementation).
Well I can say that even with guns equipped missile ships are lousy support for invasion. My latest war with the Lafena hasn't gone the best. But I'm not the best at an aggressive play-style.
With the bout-one launch, bout-two fly, bout-three do-damage interceptors can down the missiles and the launching party has a chance to reduce chaff in bout one and two (especially fighter chaff in bout two if fighters are part of the targeting condition).
All of that sounds acceptable.
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Re: Missile/Projectile Weapons

#68 Post by Ophiuchus »

Cjkjvfnby asked some questions on the prototype PR-2710 on github; stats are an internal hanger with 16 shots for 20PP and a number of launchers with 4 shots and 4 launch capacity for 20 PP each, 3 base damage and doing damage only in combat bout three (so enemies can shoot it down in bout 2 before it does any damage), targeting ships and fighters:
Cjkjvfnby wrote: > Can you share a few statistics of fighting out of the supply zone? Does it happen often?
>
> Could this weapon be used as a good defense weapon? (It will have eighter high damage or reduce attacker strength by requiring more AA weapons)).
>
> PS. Fighter-based Missle **KS-1 Komet** and **MiG-15** in the background.
>
> ![image](https://user-images.githubusercontent.c ... 02c71a.png)
> Can you share a few statistics of fighting out of the supply zone? Does it happen often?
>

Not sure what you are asking. I pretty often go into enemy supply to disrupt it. And it is usually very risky. Probably you need to establish some supply/refuel from somewhere from time to time (by invading a planet, opening up a supply line from home, or hiding for slow refuel).

Missiles are not great out-of-supply weapons. A bit or a lot better than fighters depending on the number of launch parts. If the enemy has no anti-fighter, fighters are probably better out-of-supply.

> Could this weapon be used as a good defense weapon? (It will have eighter high damage or reduce attacker strength by requiring more AA weapons)).

With "defense" - you mean in-supply? Or as resistant to anti-fighter weapons? In this layout it is mostly a "swarm" weapon. Its easy to spam a lot of missiles into space. So it is intended to overwhelm enemy anti-fighter weapons or arc disruptors. Against flak i assume it works best in combination with fighters (shielding the fighters with missiles). And it is a bit symmetric to fighters in terms of slot usage (with fighters usually internal slots are your bottleneck, if you want to swarm missiles, external slots are the thing you need). The robo hull is probably a good missile ship base but a shitty carrier.

The base damage/cost is the same as for bombers if you have lots of missile launchers. If you assume that missiles/fighters survive exactly one bout they also do the same damage.
Else I didnt have a look at cost efficiency for over a year. This PR is for other people to try it out.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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