Satellites, [...] now renamed the "cargo" thread
Moderator: Oberlus
We could always have both tugs and carrier ships. It would be interesting if one race used tugs and another used carrier ships, while another used ftl. The thing I like about tugs though is that in the space combat screen you should be able to see little tug ships attached to your ships. As your ships arrive, the tugs detach and the system ships are ready for battle.
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Impaler
- Creative Contributor
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Yes the variety of solutions in going to be interesting, rather then one set "way" to do something the player has some options all of which have their own strategic consequences.
Rather then setup a situation ware X number of tugs are needed I would recomend one inwitch the fleets speed is simply calculated based on how many tugs it has. Lots of them alow for high speed (theoreticaly almost as fast as the tugs move alone) just a few and you will be at a crawl.
I think it might be good to go with a system of hull sizes and Engine speeds like follows. Hulls have a series of sizes ranging from small frigates to giant Battlestations, all are on a continues series with a set ratio (twice the size for example) between each adjacent pair. We also have a series of Warp speeds borrowed from Stars! inwhich each Warp speed moves a ship a number of Parsecs (units of map distance) equal to the Warp factor squared (or maybe a Fibinatchi sequence or factorial of the warp speed). When the player designs ships the Engine will have a size that coresponds with a Hull size that it can effectivly move at its rated speed. So a Warp 6 Destroyer Engine will move a Destroyer at warp 6. BUT if the player puts that same engine in a Hull size larger or smaller then the nominal one the Ship gets a Bonus or Penalty to its warp speed based on the size difference. A one size smaller Hull will produce +1 warp speed, one size larger -1. Obviosly their is a lower limit at the point an Engine wont fit inside the Hull (probably a practical maximum of 2 levels here and sutch a ship would be little more then a flying Engine) and an uperlimit when the penalty incured will reduce speeds to 0. (as the game progresses that upper limit will decline so late game you could easily fit a few tiny warp 10 Engines in a Battle station to alow that station to move at warp 1 or 2 though by this point thats a very slow speed)
When ever ships dock externaly we use some simple math to compute an "overall asembalage size" and "overall Engine power" and deduce a warp speed from that. When adding up these factors we simply say that 2 ships of one size equal 1 ship of the next larger size, with Engines we say 2 Engines of one size eqaul 1 of the next larger size. This will avoid any kinds of fractional speeds and keep all ships moveing in well cordinated groups that the player can easily judge the speeds of. Internal transport wont need any sutch computations because the internal ships cant use their engines nor do they contribute to making the ship they are in larger (I guess we can say that warpdrive depends on the physical size of a ship not its mass).
So for example lets say I have a Destroyer with no Engines and instead docking Pad for a Tug that can haul it around. The Tug is 1 size smaller (lets say Frigate) but carries an oversized Engine of Destroyer size and its rated at Warp 6 (it wouldn't be a good tug if it didn't have large engines). The combined ship would still fall under the Destroyer size beacuse we are rounding down. The total Engine class is Destroyer so the Penalty is 0 and they move at warp 6. The Tug on its own can move warp 7 because it recives a +1 when not hauling around the Destroyer. If the player had simply Put the Warp 6 Destroyer Engine IN the destroyer we would have the same result without the need for a second ship or the vulnorability entailed by it (the tug is rather defenceless). In this sense the tug is less efficient, but it alows for a more powerfull destroyer because the Docking Pad that substitured for the Engine requres much less space and alows for more weapons and armor in the Destroyer. As you can see any ship could act as a tug when the situation requires it, it will simply incurre a speed penalty proportional to the size difference when doing so. Say for example a regular combat ship of Frigate Size and Frigate Engine class 6 were used to haul the Destroyer. The speed here would be 5 due to the -1 penalty.
Rather then setup a situation ware X number of tugs are needed I would recomend one inwitch the fleets speed is simply calculated based on how many tugs it has. Lots of them alow for high speed (theoreticaly almost as fast as the tugs move alone) just a few and you will be at a crawl.
I think it might be good to go with a system of hull sizes and Engine speeds like follows. Hulls have a series of sizes ranging from small frigates to giant Battlestations, all are on a continues series with a set ratio (twice the size for example) between each adjacent pair. We also have a series of Warp speeds borrowed from Stars! inwhich each Warp speed moves a ship a number of Parsecs (units of map distance) equal to the Warp factor squared (or maybe a Fibinatchi sequence or factorial of the warp speed). When the player designs ships the Engine will have a size that coresponds with a Hull size that it can effectivly move at its rated speed. So a Warp 6 Destroyer Engine will move a Destroyer at warp 6. BUT if the player puts that same engine in a Hull size larger or smaller then the nominal one the Ship gets a Bonus or Penalty to its warp speed based on the size difference. A one size smaller Hull will produce +1 warp speed, one size larger -1. Obviosly their is a lower limit at the point an Engine wont fit inside the Hull (probably a practical maximum of 2 levels here and sutch a ship would be little more then a flying Engine) and an uperlimit when the penalty incured will reduce speeds to 0. (as the game progresses that upper limit will decline so late game you could easily fit a few tiny warp 10 Engines in a Battle station to alow that station to move at warp 1 or 2 though by this point thats a very slow speed)
When ever ships dock externaly we use some simple math to compute an "overall asembalage size" and "overall Engine power" and deduce a warp speed from that. When adding up these factors we simply say that 2 ships of one size equal 1 ship of the next larger size, with Engines we say 2 Engines of one size eqaul 1 of the next larger size. This will avoid any kinds of fractional speeds and keep all ships moveing in well cordinated groups that the player can easily judge the speeds of. Internal transport wont need any sutch computations because the internal ships cant use their engines nor do they contribute to making the ship they are in larger (I guess we can say that warpdrive depends on the physical size of a ship not its mass).
So for example lets say I have a Destroyer with no Engines and instead docking Pad for a Tug that can haul it around. The Tug is 1 size smaller (lets say Frigate) but carries an oversized Engine of Destroyer size and its rated at Warp 6 (it wouldn't be a good tug if it didn't have large engines). The combined ship would still fall under the Destroyer size beacuse we are rounding down. The total Engine class is Destroyer so the Penalty is 0 and they move at warp 6. The Tug on its own can move warp 7 because it recives a +1 when not hauling around the Destroyer. If the player had simply Put the Warp 6 Destroyer Engine IN the destroyer we would have the same result without the need for a second ship or the vulnorability entailed by it (the tug is rather defenceless). In this sense the tug is less efficient, but it alows for a more powerfull destroyer because the Docking Pad that substitured for the Engine requres much less space and alows for more weapons and armor in the Destroyer. As you can see any ship could act as a tug when the situation requires it, it will simply incurre a speed penalty proportional to the size difference when doing so. Say for example a regular combat ship of Frigate Size and Frigate Engine class 6 were used to haul the Destroyer. The speed here would be 5 due to the -1 penalty.
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Sandlapper
- Dyson Forest
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- Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 11:50 pm
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That's exactly how I "visualise" it, Utilae.We could always have both tugs and carrier ships. It would be interesting if one race used tugs and another used carrier ships, while another used ftl. The thing I like about tugs though is that in the space combat screen you should be able to see little tug ships attached to your ships. As your ships arrive, the tugs detach and the system ships are ready for battle.
I have no problem at all with including ultra-mega size carriers. However, considering that tugs are, primarily, just engines with a pilot strapped to the side of it to steer it, tugs are extremely more cost effective to move a ship(starbase, any old object, etc.). You can build hundreds, if not thousands, of tugs for the time and resource cost of an ultra-mega size carrier. The only considerable benefit of the carrier is a protective, armour surface for the artifact within.
If a carrier is lost in battle, it's gone; with hundreds of tugs, you are likely to only lose a fraction of your tug capacity, and be able to ,relatively, quickly replace your loses.
That's almost exactly my thoughts. I have tugs as a tech, once acquired, you increase capacity(number of tugs) by further refinements of the tech. Initially, you may have, say, four tugs capacity per fleet. If your fleet has sixteen ships, you can only carry four ships per trip thru the starlane, you must make four trips, plus three return trips. If you refine tug capacity to sixteen ships, then all sixteen ships in fleet would be able to go in one trip. Note: in either scenario, you only give the fleet movement orders once. It would take seven trips thru the starlane, time/turnwise, for the last four ships to arrive at the final destination(first scenario). This refine does not effect the speed of the tugs, just capacity.Rather then setup a situation ware X number of tugs are needed I would recomend one inwitch the fleets speed is simply calculated based on how many tugs it has. Lots of them alow for high speed (theoreticaly almost as fast as the tugs move alone) just a few and you will be at a crawl.
A tug speed refinement could be added as well.
Tug size and power could be refined also. Note: Very large ships may require multible tugs to move thru starlane. This refinement would reduce this amount needed.
I strongly disagree.Rather then setup a situation ware X number of tugs are needed I would recomend one inwitch the fleets speed is simply calculated based on how many tugs it has. Lots of them alow for high speed (theoreticaly almost as fast as the tugs move alone) just a few and you will be at a crawl.
If youre going to have the advantage of moving system ships into combat using tugs, there has to be a risk associated with that advantage. That risk should be: if you go into battle using tugs, and some or all of your tugs are destroyed, you should lose the ability to retreat some or all of your ships if the battle goes badly.
This adds interesting strategic choices - either go with more efficient but potentially risky tugs & system ships, or go with the safe but less efficient route of jump capable battleships.
It also adds interesting tactical combat choices - sneak around the back of an enemy's forces and try to take out their tugs, thus stalling their progress or leaving their force vulnerable to a massed counterattack. Try to protect your own tugs, either with escorts or via making the tugs themselves stealthy, and hope the enemy dont find them.
The COW Project : You have a spy in your midst.
I like this idea, of using the speed of the tug, but slowing the tug by the size of what it is towing.Impaler wrote: The Tug is 1 size smaller (lets say Frigate) but carries an oversized Engine of Destroyer size and its rated at Warp 6 (it wouldn't be a good tug if it didn't have large engines). The combined ship would still fall under the Destroyer size beacuse we are rounding down. The total Engine class is Destroyer so the Penalty is 0 and they move at warp 6. The Tug on its own can move warp 7 because it recives a +1 when not hauling around the Destroyer.
Yes, you should be able to loose tugs, and ships without or with too few tugs cannot retreat.Daveybaby wrote: If youre going to have the advantage of moving system ships into combat using tugs, there has to be a risk associated with that advantage. That risk should be: if you go into battle using tugs, and some or all of your tugs are destroyed, you should lose the ability to retreat some or all of your ships if the battle goes badly.
I would also like tugs to be automatic. Instead of the player telling the tugs to join up to a ship, the tugs join up by themselves. Since each ship has x amount of join points for tugs, then x is the maximum amount of tugs that can join. There should also be an AI preference so that tugs with better engines will automatically join to bigger ships, while tugs with smaller engines will automatically join to smaller ships.
Carriers do have the advantage of protecting their cargo and hiding the size of the army, but what would be the difference in loading/unloading ships compared to tugs joining/unjoining to ships. I am thinking speed. If tugs took longer to join, then it took carriers to load, would that be good or would it be better the other way around?
Also as we all know, normal ftl ships would be far superior speed wise, though more expensive then tugs, although carriers would be costly. I guess carriers are ftl though, so that doesn't matter.