Imperial resource supply distribution (Imperial stockpile)

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Vezzra
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Re: Help needed with scripting supply ships

#31 Post by Vezzra »

Ophiuchus wrote:@Vezzra regarding cutting the thread - If it helps - could you please split the thread at http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopi ... =30#p86484 and set subject like "Imperial supply distribution discussion"?
Done (as you can see ;)).

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Re: Help needed with scripting supply ships

#32 Post by Vezzra »

Ophiuchus wrote:I see that you think that imperial PP distribution is a very powerful thing. What is so powerful is all the bonus you get if you have supply connection to specials and buildings (KI spice, industrial center, black hole generator...).
That's certainly part of it, but all these things are actually secondary. The main purpose of the supply connection mechanic is to determine to what extend you can support long range fleet operations, and distribution of your PP so you can build things. The latter being absolutely essential to do anything in the game. How and where you can spend your PP is one of the most important things, if you can't build, you're dead.
So you will always want to connect your planets to the supply line. Especially if you make PP in the stockpile more expensive. Who would want to get only half the number of ships for the same effort?
Sure, but that's not the question. While it still would be absoluetly preferable to establish supply connections (for the reasons you cited), it wouldn't be absolutely crucial anymore. And that is what makes it so powerful, and game-changing. It enables you to transfer something as funcdamentally essential as PP in much more flexible ways, and if not designed and balanced properly, will drastically change how the game works (which is not the intent).

Thorough playtesting will be required to determine to what degree an implementation of the new mechanic changes the game, and what subsequent adjustments will be necessary. Thus starting with a simple and straightforward implementation is reasonable I guess, and then adding/adjusting things as we move along.

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Re: Help needed with scripting supply ships

#33 Post by Vezzra »

Ophiuchus wrote:I was thinking a while about UI considerations and I don't think that a PP stockpile limit is a good idea. You would need to differentiate between PP used normally, PP put to the imperial stockpile and PP wasted completely.
Well, that would be three lines on the production screen, that doesn't strike me as too complicated...?
As far as I understood the main concern was that you could suddenly build a lot faster where you need it (e.g. a big fleet suddenly pops up in the other corner of the galaxy) which should be end game tech like the star gate.
I don't consider Stargates end game tech, actually, I think they would make a very reasonable prerequisite. Makes much sense fluff-explanation wise, and also with regard to placement in the tech tree.

The idea to have the building that enables you to connect a supply group to the global stockpile as an extension of the stargate building has come to my mind, and makes much sense to me.
I think putting a limit on how much PP from the stockpile you may use per turn would also suffice for that and would not have so many UI issues.
That could work too. Still, I'm a bit wary about being able to stockpile PP endlessly. Especially in multiplayer games (human vs human) that can make quite a difference. In those games it can easily happen that some players are involved in long, drawn out conflicts while others sit peacefully nearby and can stockpile and stockpile and stockpile. I've been part of games where that became a problem (actually been the stockpiler, who, when the others finally realized that I've been silently building up for ages and turned on me, has been able to defeat an alliance of all the other players :twisted:). I think there needs a cap or deterrent to all kinds of things you can accumulate, which is why things like maintenance costs have been introduced into games like ours. So you can't just pile ships endlessly... ;)

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Re: Help needed with scripting supply ships

#34 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote:As far as I understood the main concern was that you could suddenly build a lot faster where you need it (e.g. a big fleet suddenly pops up in the other corner of the galaxy) which should be end game tech like the star gate.
Stargates used to be endgame tech, they've been moved back in the tech tree. However the construction branch does need more material, and you also get them at the same time as planetary starlane drives, artificial moons and starlane bores (which doesn't make sense to me (nor do their placement in knowledge)). It also has the same (single) prerequisite as the planetary starlane drive :?

I understand that some people don't like having things in a tech tree that don't do much, but I think we need some fleshing out here.
Vezzra wrote:I don't consider Stargates end game tech, actually, I think they would make a very reasonable prerequisite. Makes much sense fluff-explanation wise, and also with regard to placement in the tech tree.

The idea to have the building that enables you to connect a supply group to the global stockpile as an extension of the stargate building has come to my mind, and makes much sense to me.
I'm going to put on my former physics major hat here and disagree, because science.

Presuming that in-game stargetes are supposed to be wormholes, bigger ones ares are going to be harder to create and maintain than smaller ones. So a small-scale wormhole that links distant colonies and allows for some transfer of resources being developed before some gigantic piece of space-infrastructure that allows you to move you gigantic battleships across the galaxy actually makes sense. The energy requirements alone (FYI: a 1 meter across wormhole would basically require converting the planet jupiter into energy), or technology to circumvent that (file torrenting for matter?) would probably have to come after you could build something that would work like an FTL oil pipeline for dueterium atoms or whatever.

Side-note: there is a good possibility that wormholes, if something that could be created, could be used to create antimatter on the cheep. If non-orientable wormholes exist, IE: wormholes with designated "entrance" and "exit" mouths, then you could actually create antimatter directly from normal matter by sending it the wrong way through the wormhole.
Ophiuchus wrote:That could work too. Still, I'm a bit wary about being able to stockpile PP endlessly. Especially in multiplayer games (human vs human) that can make quite a difference. In those games it can easily happen that some players are involved in long, drawn out conflicts while others sit peacefully nearby and can stockpile and stockpile and stockpile. I've been part of games where that became a problem (actually been the stockpiler, who, when the others finally realized that I've been silently building up for ages and turned on me, has been able to defeat an alliance of all the other players :twisted:). I think there needs a cap or deterrent to all kinds of things you can accumulate, which is why things like maintenance costs have been introduced into games like ours. So you can't just pile ships endlessly... ;)
What if the stockpile expired? What if you could stockpile technically without limit, but the PP only lasted a set number of turns? A flat limit might be difficult to balance or manage properly, being a huge boost earlier, but possibly becoming useless or even something of a nuisance to manage later in the game. That way the stockpile automatically adjusts to the level of play appropriate for where the player is in the game.
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Re: Help needed with scripting supply ships

#35 Post by Vezzra »

MatGB wrote:This explains what you're going for far better than I'd read before and changes my perspective on it a fair bit: it's part of a make "stealth as a strategy" work, and as such the way you're trying to do things does make a lot more sense.
Hm, I wouldn't go that far, because my impression is that while being able to connect disconnected parts of a stealthed empire apparently is one of the main reasons why Ophiuchus came up with their ideas (first of supply ships and now this), it's not the only (or primary) one.
I'm also very keen on getting stealth to be a usable strategy, especially in the early to mid game
With the restrictions, limitations and requirements proposed/currently under consideration, what you say here is exactly where I have my doubts how the new mechanic is really going to help. After all, it's not supposed to be something available to everybody right from the beginning, but something that has to be acquired by research, as a tech most likely for the mid game at the earliest. And then you've only started with the most basic version of the feature. It's probably quite far into late game until you're able to connect disconnected systems sufficiently easy to sustain a hidden empire. However, to last until that point you'll have to employ other strategies than stealth, and starting to hide your empire during late game is probably pointless.

That said, we can of course consider introducing "special cases", where the essential parts of the mechanic are available much earlier. One possibility would be a species that can do that right from the beginning, or achieve the required techs far more easily. Of course, that species would need to be a high stealth species too, and have some severe disadvantages to counter such a powerful advantage (highly xenophobic, extremely lousy fighters, etc.).
I can definitely see the appeal of playing as, say, Laenfa and trying to hide all your planets, only coming out when you want to/are ready.
Very much seconded, I find the idea to be very appealing too. However, to solve the issues the current supply mechanic creates for hidden empires, I think we need to come up with other solutions. Maybe yet another mechanic that allows to establish stealthed supply connections that overlap with the regular ones and can only be blocked if an enemy empire has sufficient detection to defeat your stealth.

Or by having species like the example I gave above, and only those could create really hidden empires (which should be a special case anyway).
I have zero problem with the idea of inserting an extra 'project' before Influence assuming that's going to be delayed anyway
Ok, so far two votes "fine with me" regarding having a 0.4.8 with the new mechanic. I'm inclined to take that route, but I'd like to have Geoffs input on that matter as well - Geoff? Shall I take your lack of comment so far as a "no preference" statement from you?

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Re: Help needed with scripting supply ships

#36 Post by Vezzra »

labgnome wrote:
Vezzra wrote:I don't consider Stargates end game tech, actually, I think they would make a very reasonable prerequisite. Makes much sense fluff-explanation wise, and also with regard to placement in the tech tree.

The idea to have the building that enables you to connect a supply group to the global stockpile as an extension of the stargate building has come to my mind, and makes much sense to me.
I'm going to put on my former physics major hat here and disagree, because science.
Yeah, well, depends of what you think those techs are supposed to be, or what abstracts what here.

Because before you can distribute resources by other means than along supply lines, you need to acquire those means (usually by researching technology that allows you to do things you couldn't do before). What makes sense to me here is the fact that being able to connect locations by a tech like stargates of course enables you to transfer resources that way. You then need to develop the logistics to efficiently do that via stargates in addition to the conventional logistics. But you need the stargates first, before you can develop stargate based logistics. Before I can use trains to transfer goods and develop train based logistics, I need to invent trains first.

The approach to simply base the proposed global stockpile mechanic on the Stargate tech disregards details like having small stargates first which can only transfer small things, and only very high end stargates being able to transfer capital space vessels. It just handwaves that once you manage to build something like stargates, you can do that for things up to the size of big ships, without introducing a detailed tech tree segment where you start out with small stargates for small things (and maybe small ships), and having to research refinements to be able to build stargates that can transfer Titans.

Of course that completely ignores what real world physics might probably be if things like wormholes actually exist, but here our stance on realism kicks in: we don't care. ;)

Another possible approach could be to have a common prereq therory tech ("Wormhole Physics" or "Artificial Wormholes") and have that unlock Stargates and e.g. "Wormhole Network Logistics".

However, which approach we'll choose in the end doesn't depend on what might be more in accordance with real world physics, but what works better in the game.
What if the stockpile expired? What if you could stockpile technically without limit, but the PP only lasted a set number of turns?
Strikes me as more complicated than just having a limit on the stockpile capacity. Would require us to keep track of how many PP have been in the stockpile for how many turns and represent that info in an easy comprehensible way to the player.
A flat limit might be difficult to balance or manage properly, being a huge boost earlier, but possibly becoming useless or even something of a nuisance to manage later in the game.
Only if that flat limit was fixed and could not be improved. But that doesn't sound very reasonable, the player should be able to improve that capacity e.g. by researching the relevant techs.

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Re: Imperial resource supply distribution

#37 Post by Ophiuchus »

Ok, some ideas for techs/buildings etc..

Species:

Code: Select all

0 PP/empire extraction - BAD_FRONTIER_SKILLS        
1 PP/empire extraction - AVERAGE_FRONTIER_SKILLS 
5 PP/empire extraction - GOOD_FRONTIER_SKILLS      
10 PP/empire extraction - EXCELLENT_FRONTIER_SKILLS 
Technologies

Code: Select all

+=  0.2 yield (START) Predictive Stockpiling 
+=  0.2 yield (EARLY) Generic Supplies (prereq ... production/design?)
+=  0.0 to 0.3 yield (MID/END) Transcendent Design (prereq psionics MID-GAME/END-GAME) allows building Interspecies Design Academies
+=  0.2 yield (END) Remote Factories/Starlane Remote Communication (prereq automatic factories & ?)
+=  0.1 yield (LATE END-GAME) Void Prediction - complementing predictive supply chain with freak occurences
+=20 PP/empire extraction Mass folding (prereq ... n-dimensional MID/END-GAME)
+=50 PP/empire extraction industrial supply stargates (prereq intergalactic infrastrucure + stargates)
Buildings:

Code: Select all

5 PP/empire extraction (10 if built at asteroid belt or gas giant) - Deep Space Pioneers Academy (only best bonus in empire counts). cost 100PP
 += (0 / 0.05 / .. / 0.3) yield - Interspecies Design Academy (you get 0.05 extra yield for every different species where the building gets build; so you need 7 different species with buildings for maximum yield)
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Re: Help needed with scripting supply ships

#38 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote:However, which approach we'll choose in the end doesn't depend on what might be more in accordance with real world physics, but what works better in the game.
Okay, looking back, I had misread MatGB's post on the subject and thought he was saying that he was in favor of it as a prerequisite for game-mechanic reasons. I was just going to agree and offer that I was also in favor for science related reasons.

That being said: I do think that game-mechanics wise this should probably come before stargates if distributed empires are going to be a thing, as you I think it would be more of a risk if you couldn't also expect to be able to send your whole battlefleet to defend your remote foothold at a moment's notice; at least in the beginning. That way they are a risk to setup, and make having good stealth a much more important asset if you want to keep them. Also I'd rather flesh out the very sparse construction branch of the tech tree.
Vezzra wrote:Strikes me as more complicated than just having a limit on the stockpile capacity. Would require us to keep track of how many PP have been in the stockpile for how many turns and represent that info in an easy comprehensible way to the player.
You're probably right. Mainly I like the use-it or loose-it system of resource management the game currently uses, as I think it's one of the better balancing decisions. So really I was trying to think of a way to make the stockpile well, less of a stockpile.

Although: if we are going to tie this to stargates, maybe we could forego the whole stockpile altogether, and have it function like the stargate does, either just establishing a supply connection between two planets, or sending production from one planet to another, really whichever is easier to implement. It could be part of some kind of advanced outpost pod that got created when you used the part to create a new outpost. The main thing that seems to be getting people on-board is the whole distributed empire thing and this certainly could accomplish that.
Vezzra wrote:Only if that flat limit was fixed and could not be improved. But that doesn't sound very reasonable, the player should be able to improve that capacity e.g. by researching the relevant techs.
Right now we have it so that everyone basically goes for the same techs that boost research, population and production, this would add yet another set of tech that everyone has to get, and not only that but are also tied to production. On top of this imbalance in things like the ship hulls means that everyone goes for the same ones there too. :roll: I suppose it amounts to liking the idea of a distributed empire/more exploration support for the game and actually being sold on the whole stockpile idea.
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Re: Help needed with scripting supply ships

#39 Post by Ophiuchus »

@vezzra About imperial stockpile comparing to the stargates
Vezzra wrote:Restricting distribution of PP to supply connected systems is a key mechanic, and requiring the player to establish supply connection to outposts/colonies to be able to do any reasonable building there is specifically intended and wanted that way. Also, the ability to cut enemy supply connections by blockading certain key systems is an essential key strategy.
...
That all said, now the big "but" to my reservations/objections. I am well aware that there already exists a similar drastic change to a key game mechanic which becomes accessible through research: stargates. And ships only being able to travel along starlanes is a probably even more fundamental concept of the basic game design than PP only being distributable along established supply connections.

Stargates change that mechanic on a fundamental level, however, this comes with some important restrictions, which make the whole thing reasonable and not game-breaking: You need quite some research to unlock the feature,
This I read as a request to properly balance research and build costs for imperial stockpile.
Vezzra wrote: then you need an expensive building in every system you want to connect to the stargate network, and this building can only be built at colonies, not outposts. Which means, you can't just sneak a high stealth outpost ship behind enemy lines, secretly create an outpost in some corner and establish a stargate there, which subsequently can be used to send your invasion fleet right into the backyard of your enemy.
A colony ship is only more expensive than an outpost; if you have a sneaky race its probably preferrable to get that extra stealth from the colony in the middle of enemy territory compared to outposts anyway.
Vezzra wrote: If you want to use stargates to connect disconnected parts of your empire, this is only possible if the disconnected part is large enough to sustain the production of a stargate.
Valid point. This would change with imperial stockpile. While I suggest to limit PP extraction from the stockpile so that you cannot build a sudden overwhelming fleet, you certainly could speed up the time for building your stargate/transformer (i think thats 100 PP now, so without access to the stockpile probably you need at the moment about 15 turns to build on an isolated fresh colony). So one has to think of this with balancing.
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Re: Imperial resource supply distribution

#40 Post by Vezzra »

Ophiuchus wrote:Could some moderator arrange for this, please? @Vezzra?
I'm trying, but currently suffering from overload, other things taking priority. So I have to bid your patience until I can get back to this thread...

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Re: Imperial resource supply distribution

#41 Post by Vezzra »

Vezzra wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:Could some moderator arrange for this, please? @Vezzra?
I'm trying, but currently suffering from overload, other things taking priority. So I have to bid your patience until I can get back to this thread...
Done, splitted discussion about stealthy supply to:
http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=10391

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Re: Imperial resource supply distribution

#42 Post by Ophiuchus »

Vezzra wrote:
Vezzra wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote:Could some moderator arrange for this, please? @Vezzra?
I'm trying, but currently suffering from overload, other things taking priority. So I have to bid your patience until I can get back to this thread...
Done, splitted discussion about stealthy supply to:
http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopi ... =6&t=10391
Thank you!!!!!!!!! Greatly appreciated.
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Re: Imperial resource supply distribution

#43 Post by Ophiuchus »

Bumping up my scripting post, as I didnt get any comments yet.. at the moment I'm trying to do the interspecies academy (and learning a lot more about FOCS than I imagined ;)
Ophiuchus wrote:Ok, some ideas for techs/buildings etc..

Species:

Code: Select all

0 PP/empire extraction - BAD_FRONTIER_SKILLS        
1 PP/empire extraction - AVERAGE_FRONTIER_SKILLS 
5 PP/empire extraction - GOOD_FRONTIER_SKILLS      
10 PP/empire extraction - EXCELLENT_FRONTIER_SKILLS 
Technologies

Code: Select all

+=  0.2 yield (START) Predictive Stockpiling 
+=  0.2 yield (EARLY) Generic Supplies (prereq ... production/design?)
+=  0.0 to 0.3 yield (MID/END) Transcendent Design (prereq psionics MID-GAME/END-GAME) allows building Interspecies Design Academies
+=  0.2 yield (END) Remote Factories/Starlane Remote Communication (prereq automatic factories & ?)
+=  0.1 yield (LATE END-GAME) Void Prediction - complementing predictive supply chain with freak occurences
+=20 PP/empire extraction Mass folding (prereq ... n-dimensional MID/END-GAME)
+=50 PP/empire extraction industrial supply stargates (prereq intergalactic infrastrucure + stargates)
Buildings:

Code: Select all

5 PP/empire extraction (10 if built at asteroid belt or gas giant) - Deep Space Pioneers Academy (only best bonus in empire counts). cost 100PP
 += (0 / 0.05 / .. / 0.3) yield - Interspecies Design Academy (you get 0.05 extra yield for every different species where the building gets build; so you need 7 different species with buildings for maximum yield)
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Re: Imperial resource supply distribution (Imperial stockpil

#44 Post by labgnome »

This is going to be negative, but I am just going to say it, because I think it needs to be said:

The longer I follow this discussion, the more I just want to say that I don't want to see a stockpile at all. It looks like implementation will be all sorts of issues. Even outside of the "design principles" argument I don't like the use of stockpiling as a game mechanic, and have enjoyed the simplicity of Free Orion's lack thereof.

Honestly I think this whole family of threads is only around because certain previous decisions the seemed like good ideas at the time are now coming back to bite us:
  • Non-overlapping supply: really the ability to overlap supply (or at least do so more easily) would solve most of these issues
  • Expensive colony ship: I like the new colonization mechanic. However I think "cheaper" colonies (which produce industry) might, again solve most issues here.
  • Flat bonuses do not apply to outposts: it makes sense on some level, but a bit of outpost industry (as opposed to cheap colonies) might solve the issue here.
Let's face it, we've made previous decisions here that are now making us re-think a core game mechanic and fundamental design principle just because what is an expected strategic option: exploration/distributed empire, is now effectively not possible. I remember having distributed empires in previous versions, but now getting one going in basically not possible. I even had a few of games where it was my strategy. One against another empire, and two against some space monsters (namely surrounding a drone factory). The current mechanics have become frustrating, and none of the suggested solutions so-far seem to be able to preserve simplicity. In fact it seems like here and other places we seem to be going for one design kludge after another. All of these have implementation issues, all of these have serious balance issues and all of these strike me as non-intuitive and difficult to either show or explain to the player.
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