Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#31 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:37 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:The reasoning for slowing down is that is easier to track something that you know is there from finding something unspecific somewhere in big place.
A ValueRef could be added to get the last location at which an empire has seen an object. If that was equal to the object's current location, that could be used as a test to apply a stealth penalty from a ship with a part that can "lock sensors" on observed objects. Stealth reduction would apply for all empires attempting to detect the observed object, though.

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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#32 Post by defaultuser » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:31 am

Ophiuchus wrote:Sorry for bad explanation, I'd appreciate a better one :)
Just because I don't have a better one doesn't mean I agree with that one.
Ophiuchus wrote:Still NAI is weird. NAI fluff sais you need researchers for input - which is an explanation why you need a colony. Research output is the same for any colony, for a tiny radiated one with minimal number of exobots the same as a huge planet of great researchers. Why not split the NAI centers on the huge planet in 25 tiny NAI centers and have 25 times the output?
It's no stranger than Adaptive Automation being able to add 5 industry, even on worlds where the inhabitants have no industry at all. Once again, it's machines doing the work. The locals are just there to tend the machines I suppose.

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MatGB
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#33 Post by MatGB » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:23 am

Observation: we have discussed doing a balance pass on both NAI and AdAut to change them from flat rate bonuses or to give them a minimum population or infrastructure requirement, but it's not been a priority as it would have several knock on effects, it almost certainly will happen at some point when we've caught up on other things, using them as a 'proof' for a suggestion is thus a bad idea, because we already know they're problematic ;-)
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#34 Post by Krikkitone » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:57 am

MatGB wrote:Observation: we have discussed doing a balance pass on both NAI and AdAut to change them from flat rate bonuses or to give them a minimum population or infrastructure requirement, but it's not been a priority as it would have several knock on effects, it almost certainly will happen at some point when we've caught up on other things, using them as a 'proof' for a suggestion is thus a bad idea, because we already know they're problematic ;-)
I really don't see why they are problematic... the requirement for the output is 1 planet+0.00001 population.
(for research output that makes sense... each planet has a certain number of unique studyable features...possibly there is a certain amount of production that is better local in any case to explain the automation output)

Back to the OP, it would probably be preferable if it wasn't a tech you could acquire.
Having Outposts that are stealthed because the are operated by Laenfa doesn't make sense if you decided partway through the game to systematically exterminate all the Laenfa in your empire. (and did so successfully)

If it is supposed to be a special effect of the species (ie its normally on their colonies) then the options for giving that bonus to an outpost are
-best in empire (can end up with super duper outposts if they start getting benefits from multiple species in your empire..I see that as a downside)

-was ever in empire (nonresearchable transferrable tech) [down side for the extermination reason..just grab the species for one turn then annihilate...or even hand the planet back]

-started (nonresearchable tech)

-one designated species...I think this works best...let it be the Imperial Palace effect (if species X has the Imperial Palace outposts get bonus effect from that species)

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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#35 Post by labgnome » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:13 am

Borrowing a stupid question form another thread: how much of this could be solved by just making colony ships cheaper?
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#36 Post by LGM-Doyle » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:04 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:One can move the position of an outpost, but it doesn't help if somebody is looking while you do it (they will know the new position).
That depends on the technology that is used to move the outpost.

"Planetary Phasing Cloak" and "Planetary Dimensional Cloak" both remove the planet from the observable dimensions. Arguably, even removing their gravitational effect on the galaxy. If aliens used that tech on Mars, all modern day humans could say is "Mars is gone and so is our stable orbit."

"Planetary Cloud Cover" and "Planetary Ash Clouds" may apply cloud cover like on Venus that is so caustic that aliens without the requisite tech can't land anything that will survive.

So depending on how you choose to conceptualize it, the slow transition makes sense, but being able to slow the transition by watching does not.

Game play wise, I don't know which is more fun. The observer slowing down the transition does create more interactivity, which is good.

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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#37 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:35 pm

LGM-Doyle wrote:Game play wise, I don't know which is more fun. The observer slowing down the transition does create more interactivity, which is good.
I think game play wise is the only thing that matters. Rewriting the fluff explanations is always cheap.
I like the idea enough that I would like to give it try.
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#38 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:29 pm

LGM-Doyle wrote:...I love the Laenfa and would like to see them rock a new style of play. Don't nerf their stealth.
I do not really considering stealth 20 plus cheap stealth technology access as a big nerf. You pay only half the RP than empires without such a race for the stealth technology.
So it should not be much harder to stay ahead of the detection curve.

(Note: I edited my suggestion 1 tried to make more clear. )
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#39 Post by LGM-Doyle » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:45 pm

Sorry, I did not read that closely enough. My concern is unfounded. The idea is worth trying out.

Is the reduced research cost only for empires founded by Laefna, or for any empire with at least one colony of Laefna? The first option emphasizes start game choices having a full game effect, while the second means that eventually many empires will acquire a high stealth species planet to reduce those research costs.

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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#40 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:36 pm

LGM-Doyle wrote:Sorry, I did not read that closely enough. My concern is unfounded. The idea is worth trying out.

Is the reduced research cost only for empires founded by Laefna, or for any empire with at least one colony of Laefna? The first option emphasizes start game choices having a full game effect, while the second means that eventually many empires will acquire a high stealth species planet to reduce those research costs.
The latter. Just like telepathy. Dont have a good fluff name yet, but maybe that is somebody-else's-problem(TM).
In order to get access to that benefit you need the detection to be able to invade a colony first.
Thats why I would also want AI Laenfa to try to stay ahead of detection.
For high stealth natives (not sure they exist) probably one would add at least a cloud cover to the planet.
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MatGB
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#41 Post by MatGB » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:33 am

Ophiuchus wrote: The latter. Just like telepathy. Dont have a good fluff name yet, but maybe that is somebody-else's-problem(TM).
When I was playing around scripting an almost identical idea I called it Sneaky, when I'm not in the middle of something I'll see if I've still got that work, it was ages ago though.
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#42 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:06 am

MatGB wrote:
Ophiuchus wrote: The latter. Just like telepathy. Dont have a good fluff name yet, but maybe that is somebody-else's-problem(TM).
When I was playing around scripting an almost identical idea I called it Sneaky, when I'm not in the middle of something I'll see if I've still got that work, it was ages ago though.
Here is a basic "SNEAKY" implementation (FOCS-only) which boosts planetary stealth research as discussed.
Laenfa gets nerfed base stealth but get SNEAKY: sneaky-laenfa scripting-branch. Didnt have time to play test until now. What is most importantly missing is AI changes.

Slow transition of values probably should go in a different branch.
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#43 Post by MatGB » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:37 pm

I've had this tab open for a couple days now with the intent of finding time to look at it but I'm really busy. Can you put it up as a PR so it doesn't get forgotten and someone can get to it properly: I want to when I'm less swamped but I'm way behind on some of my own projects and need to sort a fair bit of stuff out to catch up.
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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#44 Post by Ophiuchus » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:23 pm

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Re: Species Bonus for hiding Outposts?

#45 Post by dbenage-cx » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:40 pm

Have you play tested into the late game stage? In unrelated trials, I've seen performance degrade from over-complex additions to cost, may be something to keep an eye out for.

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