Policy Cards Jumble

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Oberlus
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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#76 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:19 pm Proposed new Economic Policy : Swords to Plowshares (bonus to research and secondarily to production and stability in exchange to dropping defenses in Research-focused planets).
[...]
I've made it decrease Stealth also as otherwise it would have been a total no-brainer for Sly and Laenfa early game.
I could have made it produce 0,5 Influence per undefended planet too but since I don't know if it would have been balanced I decided to wait for actual testing before taking a decision on that topic.
This policy would be a no brainer logical choice for all empires anyway: planetary defenses aren't that great so turning them into extra RPs that can be spent on extra defense that gives extra RPs... And if you really need planetary defense you'd just set focus to industry/influence or to defense on the worlds that need it. The point about policies is that you have many options but few slots. If you want to go hidden you will probably need to spend slots for stealth, so not so a no brainer for Sly/Laenfa.
Being hidden is already hard, so I don't like the penalty to stealth in any case.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#77 Post by Geoff the Medio »

LienRag wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:19 pmSwords to Plowshares [...] All resources usually allocated to Defense are diverted to culture and research
I think the name and the effect don't match up well, as I'd expect a "plowshare"-related effect to modify growth or population or similar. Perhaps calling it something like "Military Test Subjects" with the effect of diverting some planet defense to research would fit better? If possible, avoid the multiplicative adjustments to meters, though...

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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#78 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:51 am
LienRag wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:19 pm Proposed new Economic Policy : Swords to Plowshares (bonus to research and secondarily to production and stability in exchange to dropping defenses in Research-focused planets).
[...]
I've made it decrease Stealth also as otherwise it would have been a total no-brainer for Sly and Laenfa early game.
I could have made it produce 0,5 Influence per undefended planet too but since I don't know if it would have been balanced I decided to wait for actual testing before taking a decision on that topic.
This policy would be a no brainer logical choice for all empires anyway: planetary defenses aren't that great so turning them into extra RPs that can be spent on extra defense that gives extra RPs... And if you really need planetary defense you'd just set focus to industry/influence or to defense on the worlds that need it. The point about policies is that you have many options but few slots. If you want to go hidden you will probably need to spend slots for stealth, so not so a no brainer for Sly/Laenfa.
Being hidden is already hard, so I don't like the penalty to stealth in any case.
A "peaceful" policy is a fitting choice for a peaceful empire - so it is a bit weird that it discourages the only peaceful tech strategy we have (planetary stealth). Also think planetary stealth does not need any nerfs at the moment. Agree with Oberlus that loosing defence is not much of a loss against players if you get resources instead (for similar reason nobody uses stockpile focus) and +3 research is huge (compared to other early sources).. Using it might be bad to use against enemies which strike at arbitrary planets (stealthy ship opponents, having a very broad border). Currently this would be a must-have for everyone and as such makes planetary stealth completely impossible (you need to use it even if you are Laenfa/Sly and would prefer not to).

Such a policy might make sense if it contends/is properly balanced against other policy options. Economic category might fit. As a end-game policy it might be less OP.

It might make sense the other way round: up planetary stealth by 20 for most species and keep the policy malus. That would make planetary stealth strategies easier, but at a high cost.
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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#79 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:45 am Currently this would be a must-have for everyone
So I need to redo it entirely, case closed.
I really meant to make it a rewarding (but not overpowered), risky strategy.
Making the troops also close to zero would be a step in the right direction I guess, but it also would need stability penalty for warships in the same system to avoid what Oberlus foresaw, big armies defending the defenseless planets, leaving no opportunity to an attacker (defending choke points is something entirely different : any attacker smart enough to pass through would then have entire systems to conquer).

So I'll need to see Oberlus' code for Terror Suppression since I don't know as of now how to count orbiting warships.

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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#80 Post by wobbly »

At the end of the day planet defenses are less then they seem. If you have 80 shields and 30 defense thats less difference then 1 frigate with MD 3 (128 structure and 30 damage).

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Krikkitone
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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#81 Post by Krikkitone »

For swords to plowshares idea

1. double ship maintenance
2. ships with weapons cannot be built
3. shipyards give a production/population/influence/research bonus to nearby worlds
4. disbanding a ship gives a bonus as well

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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#82 Post by Oberlus »

Idea for policy, inspired in the Pleasure Domes of MoO2. Stability +infrastructure/5 (more developed planets can offer better entertainments), +1 IP when influence-focused (tourism), -10 to target infrastructure (facilities for this takes up space for other infrastructures).

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#83 Post by Geoff the Medio »

I have "Eco Tourism" and "Cultural Tourism" in my list of stuff to add.

Code: Select all

-Eco Tourism
--Non-populated planets nearby give bonus...
--Bonus to stability of planets near natural wonder specials...
---Endemic Predatory Fauna (also reduces population on planet)
---Infinite Rift-Canyons
---Vector Field Convergence
---Levitating Mountains
---Cascading Lavafalls
---Rejuvenating Moss Pools
---Temporal Anomaly (already exists)
---Phase-Changing Guysers

-Cultural Tourism
--Benefits same- or allied-empire controlled populated planets with different species nearby
--Boosts influence of influence-focused planets that have been populated a long time?
--Bonus for planets with Cultural Archives, Cultural Library, Imperial Palace, Megalith, Scrying Sphere, Species InterDesign Academy, 
--Synergy with Artisan Workshops?
--Unlock with Xenoarchaeology?

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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#84 Post by Oberlus »

Idea for policy: steal resources from other empire's supply lines.

Two flavors:

* Piracy (particularly good for stealth empires), social policy.
- +10 to ships stealth and +1 to fuel (this maybe in a different policy, if it's not already in the game).
- Steal resources from supply lines of non-allied empires (or directly from planets) up to 5 hops away from an owned planet. Actual effect to be worked out, but it could be something like the one for self-sustaining xenophobic (reducing production of nearby planets of the empire being robed, puting 50% of it into the empire's stockpile).
- Robed empires should not get an indication of what empire is robing them.

* Letter of marque,
- +1 supply (this maybe not)
- Steal resources from enemy supply lines and planets. Would be cool to work this out to activate when supply lines clash, but the same effect than above based just on planets could be used.

If only one could make it, I would go for piracy, good for Confederation distributed stealth empires.

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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#85 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:16 am Idea for policy: steal resources from other empire's supply lines.

Two flavors:

* Piracy (particularly good for stealth empires), social policy.
- +10 to ships stealth and +1 to fuel (this maybe in a different policy, if it's not already in the game).
- Steal resources from supply lines of non-allied empires (or directly from planets) up to 5 hops away from an owned planet. Actual effect to be worked out, but it could be something like the one for self-sustaining xenophobic (reducing production of nearby planets of the empire being robed, puting 50% of it into the empire's stockpile).
- Robed empires should not get an indication of what empire is robing them.
I like it. But "should not get an indication" is probably not feasible/hard to do - first: you can see the adopted policies; also 5 hops away from an unowned planet is probably still absolutely telling as we have no mechanism for stealing from an empire without reducing resources on a planet. We would need something like "neutral" piracy events to cover up piracy by empires.

Stealing from an empire could be simulated by randomly selecting planets in the empire where the effect applies.

One way this could work is as an influence project - you could carefully choose where to steal from in order to mislead. Allies would still be able to see that you are actually stealing but not from whom, maybe you could blame it on the enemies.

Or we need to disconnect stealing and profiting from it. E.g. you always get resources by piracy, instead of reducing resources you spawn stealthed neutral pirate ships which reduce resources from planets and which can only steal if there are no military ships in system. Those would freely move between star systems.
Or randomize gain independently from reduction.

For a more aggressive policy, the effect could be reducing supply of planets by 1 close to your systems.
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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#86 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:33 am "should not get an indication" is probably not feasible/hard to do
I meant something like this in the list of effects that a player can see when hovering over a planet's PP icon:
- Piracy: -1.25 PP
The idea is that piracy is performed using false flag. You can know who is doing it but cannot have a proof. If the empire doing it is going the stealth way successfully, the robbed empire won't see the planets from where the pirates are attacking.

Knowing what policies are in place for all other empires is weird, the same we know enemy techs as soon as they are researched. I expect that in a future version of FO all that information will require actions and investment from the interested empires (e.g. espionage).

On he other hand, the Letter of Marque would make clear who is robbing you:
- PLAYER's empire Letter of Marque: -1.25 PP

_________________


Although my first idea was about getting resources without needing actual warships (much in the way of other policies to get resources from unowned planets), one of these two flavours could be based on actual ships.
Piracy could use stealth (non-detected, and also non-supply-blocking) warships planted on non-allied supply lines to get resources over time (discounted from e.g. the nearest planet of the robbed empire) and put a percentage of it into stockpile.
With Letter of Marque, warships could steal directly from enemy planets they attack.

Edit: these effects based on actual ships maybe make for a different-fluff for the policy, since Letter of Marque implies using civil/non-state warships and not the actual army of the empire. Something like Rading Parties to steal resources from planets you attack. Or an internal ship part to get that effect.

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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#87 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:16 am Idea for policy: steal resources from other empire's supply lines.

Two flavors:

* Piracy (particularly good for stealth empires), social policy.
- +10 to ships stealth and +1 to fuel (this maybe in a different policy, if it's not already in the game).
- Steal resources from supply lines of non-allied empires (or directly from planets) up to 5 hops away from an owned planet. Actual effect to be worked out, but it could be something like the one for self-sustaining xenophobic (reducing production of nearby planets of the empire being robed, puting 50% of it into the empire's stockpile).
- Robed empires should not get an indication of what empire is robing them.

* Letter of marque,
- +1 supply (this maybe not)
- Steal resources from enemy supply lines and planets. Would be cool to work this out to activate when supply lines clash, but the same effect than above based just on planets could be used.

If only one could make it, I would go for piracy, good for Confederation distributed stealth empires.
Interesting flavors.
How would they be counterable ?

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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#88 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:44 am Interesting flavors.
How would they be counterable ?
detection and invasion (and using the same policy to counter the effects) I guess
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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#89 Post by Oberlus »

Idea for military policy: bonus to stealth on ships with hulls with 4 or less slots when they are set to hidden in enemy supply lines, fluff about conceiling the ship as freighters of the supply owner.

There is that older idea about another military stealth policy called Silent Running: half speed and bonus to stealth when fleet set to hidden.

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Re: Policy Cards Jumble

#90 Post by LienRag »

Maybe bonus for stealth for ships with empty slots ?

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