Human Player conceding issues

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o01eg
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Human Player conceding issues

#1 Post by o01eg » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:14 pm

This is a moved discussion from PR https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/2001

Current implementation in PR simply erase any empire's assets from universe.

As it noted it could be unbalanced so assets should be somehow remain in universe. I think it could cause issues with diplomacy. If we don't drop diplomacy states it will be possible allies couldn't capture remaining planets. If we drop diplomacy it will be possible remaining fleet in allied system will attack fleet and planets.

P.S. After implementing it for human player it could be used for AI to surrender: http://freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=91836
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Vezzra
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Re: Human Player conceding issues

#2 Post by Vezzra » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:15 pm

For the purpose of the PR, I think allowing a concede that results in all assets remaining assets getting scrapped is acceptable if the conceding player/AI hasn't any colonies left.

If it's not too much effort, you can probably add a game rule that gates if/when conceding is allowed: no conceding at all, only after all colonies are lost, always.

We can always work on better solutions on that later on, but that approach would at least be an improvement to the current situation (having to hunt down each and every single ship of a defeated AI).

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Re: Human Player conceding issues

#3 Post by Gault.Drakkor » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:39 pm

Having read over a chunk of comments in the pr.
Please choose some other words.
(ui side note: if a menu or button brings up another window it should be followed by ellipses )


To click on "frobnob..." and to have a message saying "Do you wish to frobnob: yes, no, cancel" Does not help anybody to make a decision.
It does not answer "what will happen?"

At least if I click "resign..." or "concede..." put in the resulting box what the game implications are.

Especially when: concede "admit that something is true or valid after first denying or resisting" It is only vaguely implied by context what is being admitted. ( I admit the AIs make poor decisions? I have lost? I have won? -- all those are valid concessions)
Does not answer: What is going to happen to the game state?. How is this any different then quit?

Please consider:
"Main menu..." -> "Return to main menu. If multiplayer: Leave seat, empire will have turns auto complete."
"Surrender to..." -> "All ships auto scrapped. All colonies ownership transferred." "no one, player 0 player 1 .. player n."
"AI control..." -> "Choose AI to control empire . Player may resume control at a later turn/time." "aggressive, maniacal, etc"

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Re: Human Player conceding issues

#4 Post by o01eg » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:45 pm

Vezzra wrote:We can always work on better solutions on that later on, but that approach would at least be an improvement to the current situation (having to hunt down each and every single ship of a defeated AI).
Current situation in multiplayer is to stop the game, replace the conceded player with AI, catch bugs with AI after human and PR was made while keeping in mind human players, not AI.

About every single ship I think it's issue with the elimination check. Currently empire considered eliminated only when it has no assets. But it possible to check only colonies and ship parts could create colonies like troops, colony pods and so on. I think it better to make it unconditional rule of the game to scrap any assets of any player if he hasn't colonies and cann't create one.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Human Player conceding issues

#5 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:57 pm

Vezzra wrote:We can always work on better solutions on that later on, but that approach would at least be an improvement to the current situation (having to hunt down each and every single ship of a defeated AI).
When is a player required to do that?

If it's just to get a "you win!" message, then the solution is to make victory conditions that don't require hunting down all ships of all empires. For example, if a single player has 80% of all planets and at least 50% of all ships, that could trigger a victory condition. Whether the other 20% of planets are all owned by one empire, or 10% by one and 1% each by 10 other empires is unimportant.
Gault.Drakkor wrote:"Surrender to..." -> "All ships auto scrapped. All colonies ownership transferred." "no one, player 0 player 1 .. player n."
"Surrender to X" seems like a reasonable term to use for the case where an empire's stuff (ships and planets) is given to another empire. I don't think AI should ever do this, though.

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Re: Human Player conceding issues

#6 Post by Dilvish » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:30 pm

Geoff the Medio wrote:I don't think AI should ever do this, though.
If you want to revisit such basic issues as that then please do so, with your reasoning, in the thread specific to that issue (edited, thanks for the correction Geoff). Please note, that thread was continuing a PR discussion which you'll need to read first to be up to speed.

Unless Geoff quickly changes his mind I guess we'll at least tentatively drop the thought of having the AI piggyback on this concede order (which would have been a nice clean handling for the AI), since it seems to be muddling and bogging down both issues.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Human Player conceding issues

#7 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:26 pm

I don't think that link leads where you meant it to.

Edit: I suppose this: http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=10890

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Vezzra
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Re: Human Player conceding issues

#8 Post by Vezzra » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:42 pm

Geoff the Medio wrote:
Vezzra wrote:We can always work on better solutions on that later on, but that approach would at least be an improvement to the current situation (having to hunt down each and every single ship of a defeated AI).
When is a player required to do that?
On larger maps, once you've defeated on AI to the point where it has no colonies left, but still a couple of armed ships scattered in some remote corners. Then you have to split some of your warships from the main force and send them hunting after those leftovers, so they don't become a nuisance should they start to move around in your backyard.

Not the end of the world, but still quite annoying.
If it's just to get a "you win!" message, then the solution is to make victory conditions that don't require hunting down all ships of all empires.
Sure, if it's about achieving victory, then having almost defeated enemies surrendering isn't really necessary. But usually you have to defeat/eliminate a couple of enemy empires before you get to that point.

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