We already know that we are going to have SMAC style goverment choices consisting of several catogories with 1 choice to be make in each. SMAC had 4 catagories Goverment, Economics and Values for most of the game and Future Society witch only came into play late game.
So far their has been a lot of work done on Goverment and Economic choices and these will definatly make it into the game. But only 2 choice fields seems rather low to me, the combinations arn't deep enough. A minimum of 3 preferable 4 would be better. For the longest time I have been pondering what other catagories might be logical. I think I have found an answer over at Firaxis. Civ 4 will feature 5 groupings, Goverment, Legal, Economic and Labor with an aditional "Religion" grouping that I dont think we need. The adoption of Labor and Legal as Social enginering catagories would give homes to a number of idea that dont fit well in other catagories such as "Caste" systems or "Slavery" for the Labor group.
An adition benifit is that we can easily see the place to put these options in the tec tree, Legal should go with Goverment under Learning and Labor should go with Economy under the Economics Catagory.
In the near future I will try to compose some listings of Legal and Labor options. In general its best to think of the catagory as a question and the choice as your races answer. So our 4 questions are...
Goverment: How are Desisions made?
Legal: How is the Desision enforced?
Economics: How is wealth exchanged?
Labor: How is wealth created?
I think we should aim at 4-8 answers for each catagory, as in SMAC each race dose not have accesss to each option so only 4-6 choices are avalible to you at any one time. The total number of combinations would be several hundred.
Another interesting idea might be for a bit of linking between the catagories, say each Goverment choice has its "natural" or "prefered" Legal, Economic and Labor partners. These 4 options for a kind of "meta-society" many of which might be familiar to use for example Comunism = Athoritarian Goverment + Brutal Legal + Socialist Econ + Forced labor. Perhaps even 4 Wheels of Social Enginering could exist to organize the whole thing. Like a combination lock when all the wheels align the Meta-choices are shown thus some meta choices can be seen as close or far just like the EP wheel.
The final SMAC catagory "Values" was a nice catagory basicaly it answers "What do your people want?". In FO I think we should use the Faction Ethos system discussed earlier inwhitch your population swings between randomly generated factions that have their own desired. In essense you cant deside what your people value as they often value very different things (leading to disharmony). The 4 areas you CAN manipulate represent structural changes to society that are within your control.
Social Enginering Groups
Moderator: Oberlus
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Impaler
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Social Enginering Groups
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune
I am against any kind of pre-definition. Let the choices remain loose and decided only by the player game-style.Another interesting idea might be for a bit of linking between the catagories, say each Goverment choice has its "natural" or "prefered" Legal, Economic and Labor partners.
Otherwise good post.
I would change Legal to Bureoucracy if it weren't so damn long and if I knew how to spell it!!!
More importantly...Civ 4 is being made? WoWIE
Staying awake and aware is perhaps the hardest thing to do.
Such an approach might be preferable to more complex social/governmental models, as suggested elsewhere. Perhaps at the set-up of a new game, the player might choose between systems depending on play-style.
Some suggestions....
THE STATE
Government Type
Tyranny/Despotism (one ruler)
Theocracy (government according to the perceived will of a god or gods)
Monarchy (one ruler and an accompanying aristocracy of nobles)
Oligarchy (a few rulers, often plutocratic)
Republic (representative government; centralized government)
Federal Republic (representative government; a strong federal union between its constituent states)
Confederal Republic (representative government; a loose confederation of member states)
Democracy (political egalitarianism; centralized government)
Federal Democracy (political egalitarianism; a strong federal union)
Confederal Democracy (political egalitarianism; a loose confederation of member polities)
Governmental Disposition
Totalitarian (total government involvement in society)
Authoritarian (excessive government involvement in society)
Conservative (the propensity to preserve established institutions)
Reactionary (violent opposition to political, social, and technological change)
Progressive (favors political, social, and technological change)
Liberal (favors individual, social, and political freedom)
Libertarian (favors individual, social, and political freedom; generally opposes state action; sometimes anarchic)
POLITICAL-ECONOMY
Economic System
Feudalism (ownership of property by a titular nobility; economic policy set by the lords and monarch)
Feudal Market (fiefs and market-oriented exchange)
Market Capitalism (property is owned privately and/or by corporations; the allocation of resources are determined primarily by price calculations)
State Capitalism (property is owned privately and/or by corporations; the allocation of resources is determined by coordinated corporate and state bureaucracies)
Social-market Capitalism (properties owned by private individuals, corporations, cooperatives, and the state; the allocation of resources are determined by both price calculations and government action)
State Socialism (Property is owned by the state or by the people nationally; the allocation of resources are determined by state bureaucracies)
Market Socialism (Property is owned socially; market mechanisms are utilized according to democratic and egalitarian principles)
Federal Socialism or Anarcho-Syndicalism (property is owned socially by the workers at the local level — the workplace or community — and the principles of federalism and democracy are utilized to establish a community of goods)
Labor Policy
Slave-labor (labor rendered by individuals owned by others)
Employed (labor rendered by individuals employed by either private employers or the state)
Associative (labor rendered by individuals working cooperatively as equals)
Biological-collectivism (the divisions of labor are determined biologically)
SOCIAL DISPOSITION (check more than one in each category???)
Domestic Ethos
Religious (the population, generally, is very religious)
Secular (the public has little concern for religious matters)
Egalitarian (by and large individuals in such a society see each other as their equals)
Stratified (their is a very definite social heirarchy; people know their place in society)
Individualistic (individuals have the utmost concern regarding their own personal freedoms)
Hive-collectivist (individuals are unquestioningly devoted to the polity, state, or society as a matter of biological determinism)
Unitary-collectivist (individuals willingly devote themselves wholly to the good of their society)
Mercenary (concerned with wealth)
Foreign Ethos
Xenophobic (much of the public either fears or hates all things alien)
Xenophiles (the people are curious about and/or approve of alien cultures)
Nationalist (the people put the interests of their nation above other concerns)
Internationalist (the people favor international cooperation)
Militarististic (the people favor military action in dealing with others and difficult international matters)
Pacific (the public favor peaceful co-existence)
The name of the empire might be determined by the choices you make. In Civ2, for example, if your government was Communist, you would be the Aztec People's Republic, or, if a Democracy, the Egyptian United States. Just as in Civ2, in FO, there would be a certain default. Of course, you can always change the name of your empire.
Examples:
Terran Social Democracy
Gov. Type: Confederal Democratic
Gov. Disposition: Liberal
Economic System: Federal Socialism
Labor Policy: Associative
Domestic Ethos: Egalitarian, Individualistic
Foreign Ethos: Internationalist, Pacific
or
Denebian Federation
Gov. Type: Federal Democratic
Gov. Disposition: Liberal
Economic System: Market Capitalism
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Individualistic, Mercenary
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist, Pacific
or
Centauri People's Holy Republic
Gov. Type: Republic
Gov. Disposition: Conservative
Economic System: State Socialism
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Religious
Foreign Ethos: Xenophobic, Pacific
etc.
Thanks again.
Some suggestions....
THE STATE
Government Type
Tyranny/Despotism (one ruler)
Theocracy (government according to the perceived will of a god or gods)
Monarchy (one ruler and an accompanying aristocracy of nobles)
Oligarchy (a few rulers, often plutocratic)
Republic (representative government; centralized government)
Federal Republic (representative government; a strong federal union between its constituent states)
Confederal Republic (representative government; a loose confederation of member states)
Democracy (political egalitarianism; centralized government)
Federal Democracy (political egalitarianism; a strong federal union)
Confederal Democracy (political egalitarianism; a loose confederation of member polities)
Governmental Disposition
Totalitarian (total government involvement in society)
Authoritarian (excessive government involvement in society)
Conservative (the propensity to preserve established institutions)
Reactionary (violent opposition to political, social, and technological change)
Progressive (favors political, social, and technological change)
Liberal (favors individual, social, and political freedom)
Libertarian (favors individual, social, and political freedom; generally opposes state action; sometimes anarchic)
POLITICAL-ECONOMY
Economic System
Feudalism (ownership of property by a titular nobility; economic policy set by the lords and monarch)
Feudal Market (fiefs and market-oriented exchange)
Market Capitalism (property is owned privately and/or by corporations; the allocation of resources are determined primarily by price calculations)
State Capitalism (property is owned privately and/or by corporations; the allocation of resources is determined by coordinated corporate and state bureaucracies)
Social-market Capitalism (properties owned by private individuals, corporations, cooperatives, and the state; the allocation of resources are determined by both price calculations and government action)
State Socialism (Property is owned by the state or by the people nationally; the allocation of resources are determined by state bureaucracies)
Market Socialism (Property is owned socially; market mechanisms are utilized according to democratic and egalitarian principles)
Federal Socialism or Anarcho-Syndicalism (property is owned socially by the workers at the local level — the workplace or community — and the principles of federalism and democracy are utilized to establish a community of goods)
Labor Policy
Slave-labor (labor rendered by individuals owned by others)
Employed (labor rendered by individuals employed by either private employers or the state)
Associative (labor rendered by individuals working cooperatively as equals)
Biological-collectivism (the divisions of labor are determined biologically)
SOCIAL DISPOSITION (check more than one in each category???)
Domestic Ethos
Religious (the population, generally, is very religious)
Secular (the public has little concern for religious matters)
Egalitarian (by and large individuals in such a society see each other as their equals)
Stratified (their is a very definite social heirarchy; people know their place in society)
Individualistic (individuals have the utmost concern regarding their own personal freedoms)
Hive-collectivist (individuals are unquestioningly devoted to the polity, state, or society as a matter of biological determinism)
Unitary-collectivist (individuals willingly devote themselves wholly to the good of their society)
Mercenary (concerned with wealth)
Foreign Ethos
Xenophobic (much of the public either fears or hates all things alien)
Xenophiles (the people are curious about and/or approve of alien cultures)
Nationalist (the people put the interests of their nation above other concerns)
Internationalist (the people favor international cooperation)
Militarististic (the people favor military action in dealing with others and difficult international matters)
Pacific (the public favor peaceful co-existence)
The name of the empire might be determined by the choices you make. In Civ2, for example, if your government was Communist, you would be the Aztec People's Republic, or, if a Democracy, the Egyptian United States. Just as in Civ2, in FO, there would be a certain default. Of course, you can always change the name of your empire.
Examples:
Terran Social Democracy
Gov. Type: Confederal Democratic
Gov. Disposition: Liberal
Economic System: Federal Socialism
Labor Policy: Associative
Domestic Ethos: Egalitarian, Individualistic
Foreign Ethos: Internationalist, Pacific
or
Denebian Federation
Gov. Type: Federal Democratic
Gov. Disposition: Liberal
Economic System: Market Capitalism
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Individualistic, Mercenary
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist, Pacific
or
Centauri People's Holy Republic
Gov. Type: Republic
Gov. Disposition: Conservative
Economic System: State Socialism
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Religious
Foreign Ethos: Xenophobic, Pacific
etc.
Thanks again.
I really like that idea.
One thing is that some choices might seem contradictory. A Libertarian, socialist, tyranny, for example. Hence the choices might be more limited than it would first appear. Also the current choices seem quite human-centric, so perhaps there should be more 'alien' options. Aliens might not have any concept of property ownership, or of the individual for example.
I think this model could work well with an internal faction system like I proposed here:
viewtopic.php?t=1037
The types of internal faction available (noble houses / liberal/conservative forces etc) would be determined by choices in governement system.
One thing is that some choices might seem contradictory. A Libertarian, socialist, tyranny, for example. Hence the choices might be more limited than it would first appear. Also the current choices seem quite human-centric, so perhaps there should be more 'alien' options. Aliens might not have any concept of property ownership, or of the individual for example.
I think this model could work well with an internal faction system like I proposed here:
viewtopic.php?t=1037
The types of internal faction available (noble houses / liberal/conservative forces etc) would be determined by choices in governement system.
Last edited by Ran Taro on Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ran Taro said: "One thing is that some choices might seem contradictory. A Libertarian, socialist, tyranny, for example."
Absolutely.
Each category may only work in certain combinations. Starting with the government type, your choice in governmental disposition will be limited to only those which are compatible, and so with political-economy, and ethos too.
A libertarian, socialist democracy is a possibility, but a democratic feudal market is not.
Impaler used Communism as his example. IMO, modeled on the USSR of the 1970s, it would be a centralized Republican government (despite the confederal nature of its constitution), with an Authoritarian disposition, a State Socialist economic system, Employed Labor, socially Secular, Stratified and Nationalistic (despite the egalitarian and internationalist rhetoric).
For the most part, I did write from a human-centric POV. Alien ideas are yet to come....
I like your proposal, Ran Taro.
Absolutely.
Each category may only work in certain combinations. Starting with the government type, your choice in governmental disposition will be limited to only those which are compatible, and so with political-economy, and ethos too.
A libertarian, socialist democracy is a possibility, but a democratic feudal market is not.
Impaler used Communism as his example. IMO, modeled on the USSR of the 1970s, it would be a centralized Republican government (despite the confederal nature of its constitution), with an Authoritarian disposition, a State Socialist economic system, Employed Labor, socially Secular, Stratified and Nationalistic (despite the egalitarian and internationalist rhetoric).
For the most part, I did write from a human-centric POV. Alien ideas are yet to come....
I like your proposal, Ran Taro.
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Impaler
- Creative Contributor
- Posts: 1060
- Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:40 am
- Location: Tucson, Arizona USA
Here is my list, I have tried to inculde as many of the ideas mentioned so far as possible. I am aiming for 8 choices in each catagory and for their to be a great deal of diversity.
Goverment
Despotism - Any system with a single comanding individual who has little constraints on his power, he could be cruel or benevilent. This type of govermetn will periodicaly experience empire wide chaos when the old leader dies and a new one is chossen/fought over.
Republic - Any system with a strong representative central Legislature, they might be elected. Their were some very nice ideas a thread back about the "Senate" giving the player a Budjet that they need to stay within. That would be a great effect for this choice.
Consensus - A goverment underwitch all members have an equal voice and all desisions are made by a consensus representing the median opinion of all. Under this gov your restricted from perforiming actions that public opinion dose not support.
Anarchy - Often called Dispersed under previous threads, this is a total lack of the consept of govermental athority. Each individual is completly left to their own device, coperation is completly voluntary and temprary. A race like this is very hard to control.
Hive - A Hive goverment is run on Instinct, "leaders" are just as thoughtless as their sugjects and make desisions on instinct. A hive goverment is very stable but predictable and unimaginative. A hive will make great self sacrafices when nessary.
Conglomerate - A conglomerated goverment is a coalition of specialized sub-groups each with a very destinct and focused purpose. Each group keeps to its own tasks without any centralized leadership. All groupings in this kind of society are specialized and indipendent. Everyone is expected to handle their own sphere of influence without oversight.
Confederacy - A confederacy has a weak central goverment that strives to keep the individual portions from being opressed. Confederacies are often subject to break-up inwhich planets declared themselves independent when unhappy.
Legal
Aristocratic - This society is held together by the leadership of older respected individuals who form a kind of nobility. It is not nessarily a hereditary one though. Laws are enforced by these elites.
Thought-Control - 1984, all members of society have been brainwashed to the point of being unable to defiy the goverments mandates. Considerable resistence to spying and subversion is also implanted.
Coruption - A corupt Legal system is based on self gain, all laws are enforced or not enforced because of the gain involved. Hero characters and the like are easier to recruit and pay for due to the insentives of holding office. However the populace is far from happy.
Honor - An honor based society enforces laws through a strict code of honor, dishonor is worse then death in such a society (Klingons). Population is harder to assimilate under this type of society and warriors are braver.
Judicial - A judicial society enforces laws with a system of judges, courts and juries. Ofenders are punished in some mannor and this keeps the rest inline. Judicial societies experience a "justice" cost that incresses as the population gets angry. It is offten cheaper to spend money on Luxuries to passify the population then incure the justice costs.
Logical - A logical society obeys the mandates of its society because they see the value in doing so. Such societies are quite peacefull to a fault, the populace can not be rallied into a frenzy for political purposes.
Economics
Gift - A Gift economy reverses the normal transaction of cash based societies. In this system Producers give away their production as a gift to consumers. The consumer is indepted to the producer and is expected to repay in the future. This relation extends to the goverment as well. Each turn the player recives a random "gift" of some moderate value (size incresses through game to remain proportional) such as a pile of money, a space ship, a facility ect ect. Conversly the player can scrap items to temporarily incresse the happyness of a planet.
Lasie-Fare - Unregulated Capitalist Robber-barrons run this economy and provide incressed cash flow for the player, but over-expantion leads to busts as well as booms (random events greatly incressing and decressing production respectivly). Facilities and ships may be scraped in Busts as well.
Planned - A Planned economy taxes heavily and redistricutes wealth to the lower classes. Goverment planning is used to alocate all resorces. As a result the population is more contented but often less productive and efficienty.
Barter - A barter based economy does not have a well defined monetary unit, "money" is instead a colection of high value density objects that have a value only due to tradability. This structure keeps down any large acumulation of wealth as price fluctuations destroy wealth too easily. To reflect this the players cash reserves fluctuate every turn being multiplied by -50% to +50% randomly. A great deal of money can be made and lost in this way. In addition basic resorces can be sold for cash.
Fudal - A fudal economy focuses on self sufficiency by creating self sufficient "cells" of economic activity, trade between cells consists only of the most rare and difficult to produce items. Because of this self sufficiency orientation the player must maintain atleast one Mixed Focus at all time (either primary or secondary). Planets are harder to Blockade under a Fudal system and population migration is low as well.
Syndicate - Under a Syndicate property is owned by though who use it on a daily basis. Because of this expantion of the infastructure is slower then normal but maintance is lower (people take good care of stuff when they own it).
Labor
Caste - Any system in which workers do not choose their tasks, they could be Biologicaly designed, subliminaly trained ect ect. The high degree of specialization makes the work force more productive but inhibits any change in work alocation (workers must be laboriously retrained/hatched).
Wage - A wage system pays workers for their work and the worker choose to accept of decline work for a particualar wage (if a wage system becomes so coersive that the worked realy has no choice then it becomes a Forced labor system). Because work is money driven projects can be accelerated at the cost of money.
Eudimonia - Workers work entirely for their own self fuffilment under Eudimonia, work cant be accelerated by the goverment. On the other hand science is far more creative and Secret Projects/Wonders because of their uniqueness inspire faster work.
Forced - a forces labor system extracts its work from the worker like blood from a stone and as a result population are quite unhappy. Work can be accelerated by working them to death (convert pop into production) just like Civ 3.
Vasal - A vasal system involves workers being sworn to a master (either an oath or in more advanced societies a contract). Benifits are provided rather then money and the relationship is longterm but not lifelong. Workers can shop around for better deals.
Faith - Society is motivated to serve an incorporeal "greater goal" often involving one or more dieties and a purposed afterlife. A Faith based labor system can move mountains when properly motivated. Such a society can declare "Holy War" the highest most deadly state of war, production is greatly incressed but at considerable long term cost. Only military goods can be produced and the population is bloodthirsty for action against the victim race.
Goverment
Despotism - Any system with a single comanding individual who has little constraints on his power, he could be cruel or benevilent. This type of govermetn will periodicaly experience empire wide chaos when the old leader dies and a new one is chossen/fought over.
Republic - Any system with a strong representative central Legislature, they might be elected. Their were some very nice ideas a thread back about the "Senate" giving the player a Budjet that they need to stay within. That would be a great effect for this choice.
Consensus - A goverment underwitch all members have an equal voice and all desisions are made by a consensus representing the median opinion of all. Under this gov your restricted from perforiming actions that public opinion dose not support.
Anarchy - Often called Dispersed under previous threads, this is a total lack of the consept of govermental athority. Each individual is completly left to their own device, coperation is completly voluntary and temprary. A race like this is very hard to control.
Hive - A Hive goverment is run on Instinct, "leaders" are just as thoughtless as their sugjects and make desisions on instinct. A hive goverment is very stable but predictable and unimaginative. A hive will make great self sacrafices when nessary.
Conglomerate - A conglomerated goverment is a coalition of specialized sub-groups each with a very destinct and focused purpose. Each group keeps to its own tasks without any centralized leadership. All groupings in this kind of society are specialized and indipendent. Everyone is expected to handle their own sphere of influence without oversight.
Confederacy - A confederacy has a weak central goverment that strives to keep the individual portions from being opressed. Confederacies are often subject to break-up inwhich planets declared themselves independent when unhappy.
Legal
Aristocratic - This society is held together by the leadership of older respected individuals who form a kind of nobility. It is not nessarily a hereditary one though. Laws are enforced by these elites.
Thought-Control - 1984, all members of society have been brainwashed to the point of being unable to defiy the goverments mandates. Considerable resistence to spying and subversion is also implanted.
Coruption - A corupt Legal system is based on self gain, all laws are enforced or not enforced because of the gain involved. Hero characters and the like are easier to recruit and pay for due to the insentives of holding office. However the populace is far from happy.
Honor - An honor based society enforces laws through a strict code of honor, dishonor is worse then death in such a society (Klingons). Population is harder to assimilate under this type of society and warriors are braver.
Judicial - A judicial society enforces laws with a system of judges, courts and juries. Ofenders are punished in some mannor and this keeps the rest inline. Judicial societies experience a "justice" cost that incresses as the population gets angry. It is offten cheaper to spend money on Luxuries to passify the population then incure the justice costs.
Logical - A logical society obeys the mandates of its society because they see the value in doing so. Such societies are quite peacefull to a fault, the populace can not be rallied into a frenzy for political purposes.
Economics
Gift - A Gift economy reverses the normal transaction of cash based societies. In this system Producers give away their production as a gift to consumers. The consumer is indepted to the producer and is expected to repay in the future. This relation extends to the goverment as well. Each turn the player recives a random "gift" of some moderate value (size incresses through game to remain proportional) such as a pile of money, a space ship, a facility ect ect. Conversly the player can scrap items to temporarily incresse the happyness of a planet.
Lasie-Fare - Unregulated Capitalist Robber-barrons run this economy and provide incressed cash flow for the player, but over-expantion leads to busts as well as booms (random events greatly incressing and decressing production respectivly). Facilities and ships may be scraped in Busts as well.
Planned - A Planned economy taxes heavily and redistricutes wealth to the lower classes. Goverment planning is used to alocate all resorces. As a result the population is more contented but often less productive and efficienty.
Barter - A barter based economy does not have a well defined monetary unit, "money" is instead a colection of high value density objects that have a value only due to tradability. This structure keeps down any large acumulation of wealth as price fluctuations destroy wealth too easily. To reflect this the players cash reserves fluctuate every turn being multiplied by -50% to +50% randomly. A great deal of money can be made and lost in this way. In addition basic resorces can be sold for cash.
Fudal - A fudal economy focuses on self sufficiency by creating self sufficient "cells" of economic activity, trade between cells consists only of the most rare and difficult to produce items. Because of this self sufficiency orientation the player must maintain atleast one Mixed Focus at all time (either primary or secondary). Planets are harder to Blockade under a Fudal system and population migration is low as well.
Syndicate - Under a Syndicate property is owned by though who use it on a daily basis. Because of this expantion of the infastructure is slower then normal but maintance is lower (people take good care of stuff when they own it).
Labor
Caste - Any system in which workers do not choose their tasks, they could be Biologicaly designed, subliminaly trained ect ect. The high degree of specialization makes the work force more productive but inhibits any change in work alocation (workers must be laboriously retrained/hatched).
Wage - A wage system pays workers for their work and the worker choose to accept of decline work for a particualar wage (if a wage system becomes so coersive that the worked realy has no choice then it becomes a Forced labor system). Because work is money driven projects can be accelerated at the cost of money.
Eudimonia - Workers work entirely for their own self fuffilment under Eudimonia, work cant be accelerated by the goverment. On the other hand science is far more creative and Secret Projects/Wonders because of their uniqueness inspire faster work.
Forced - a forces labor system extracts its work from the worker like blood from a stone and as a result population are quite unhappy. Work can be accelerated by working them to death (convert pop into production) just like Civ 3.
Vasal - A vasal system involves workers being sworn to a master (either an oath or in more advanced societies a contract). Benifits are provided rather then money and the relationship is longterm but not lifelong. Workers can shop around for better deals.
Faith - Society is motivated to serve an incorporeal "greater goal" often involving one or more dieties and a purposed afterlife. A Faith based labor system can move mountains when properly motivated. Such a society can declare "Holy War" the highest most deadly state of war, production is greatly incressed but at considerable long term cost. Only military goods can be produced and the population is bloodthirsty for action against the victim race.
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune
Jeeze, you two are friggin palladium mine of information, with platinum veins here and there.
I would love this complexity, but there should be a simpler government model (or maybe pre-arranged government blocks?)
METhomas, if you can be kind enough to classify some Real World countries in your system, I would be most apreciative. Particulars of interest:
1913 - Germany, Russia, France
1938 - Germany, USSR, France, Japan
1965-70 - USSR, USA
I would love this complexity, but there should be a simpler government model (or maybe pre-arranged government blocks?)
METhomas, if you can be kind enough to classify some Real World countries in your system, I would be most apreciative. Particulars of interest:
1913 - Germany, Russia, France
1938 - Germany, USSR, France, Japan
1965-70 - USSR, USA
Staying awake and aware is perhaps the hardest thing to do.
Yaromir, these represent my opinions regarding the countries you listed.
1913 - Germany, Russia, France
1938 - Germany, USSR, France, Japan
1965-70 - USSR, USA
German Empire (1913)
Gov. Type: Monarchy (with a representative parliament)
Gov. Disposition: Conservative
Economic System: quasi-Social-market Capitalism (considering the Kaiser's welfare policies, partially implemented to undermine the appeal of the SPD)
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Religious, Stratified
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist, Militaristic
Social unrest.
Russian Empire (1913)
Gov. Type: Monarchy
Gov. Disposition: Reactionary
Economic System: State Capitalist (actually pre-capitalist)
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Religious, Stratified
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist
Social unrest.
French Republic (1913)
Gov. Type: Republic
Gov. Disposition: Conservative
Economic System: Market Capitalist
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Secular, quasi-Egalitarian, Mercenary
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist
German Reich (1938)
Gov. Type: Despostism, though possibly Oligarchy (though technically republican)
Gov. Disposition: Totalitarian
Economic System: State Capitalist
Labor Policy: Employed (excepting forced labor)
Domestic Ethos: Stratified
Foreign Ethos: Xenophobic, Nationalist, Militaristic
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (1938)
Gov. Type: Despotism (though technically a federal republic)
Gov. Disposition: Totalitarian
Economic System: State Socialist
Labor Policy: Employed (excepting the forced labor of the gulags)
Domestic Ethos: Secular, Stratified (rhetorically egalitarian)
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist, Militaristic
French Republic (1938)
Gov. Type: Republic
Gov. Disposition: Liberal (Conservative)
Economic System: Market Capitalist
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Secular, quasi-Egalitarian, Mercenary
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist
The Empire of Japan (1938)
Gov. Type: Oligarchy (technically a theocratic-monarchy)
Gov. Disposition: Reactionary
Economic System: State Capitalist
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Religous, Stratified
Foreign Ethos: Xenophobic, Nationalist, Militaristic
United States of America (1965-70)
Gov. Type: Federal Republic
Gov. Disposition: Liberal (this side of Conservative)
Economic System: Social-market Capitalism (this side of Market Capitalism)
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Secular (with strong Religious elements), quasi-Egalitarian
Foreign Ethos: Xenophiles, Nationalist, Militaristic
Union of Socialist Soviet Republics (1965-70)
Gov. Type: Republic (technically a confederal republic, but definitely centralized and oligarchic)
Gov. Disposition: Authoritarian
Economic System: State Socialist
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Secular, Stratified (rhetorically Egalitarian)
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist, Militaristic
Reality doesn't fit in such nice and easy categories, but I think this is fairly accurate.
I'll post later, I've gotta go to work....
1913 - Germany, Russia, France
1938 - Germany, USSR, France, Japan
1965-70 - USSR, USA
German Empire (1913)
Gov. Type: Monarchy (with a representative parliament)
Gov. Disposition: Conservative
Economic System: quasi-Social-market Capitalism (considering the Kaiser's welfare policies, partially implemented to undermine the appeal of the SPD)
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Religious, Stratified
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist, Militaristic
Social unrest.
Russian Empire (1913)
Gov. Type: Monarchy
Gov. Disposition: Reactionary
Economic System: State Capitalist (actually pre-capitalist)
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Religious, Stratified
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist
Social unrest.
French Republic (1913)
Gov. Type: Republic
Gov. Disposition: Conservative
Economic System: Market Capitalist
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Secular, quasi-Egalitarian, Mercenary
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist
German Reich (1938)
Gov. Type: Despostism, though possibly Oligarchy (though technically republican)
Gov. Disposition: Totalitarian
Economic System: State Capitalist
Labor Policy: Employed (excepting forced labor)
Domestic Ethos: Stratified
Foreign Ethos: Xenophobic, Nationalist, Militaristic
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (1938)
Gov. Type: Despotism (though technically a federal republic)
Gov. Disposition: Totalitarian
Economic System: State Socialist
Labor Policy: Employed (excepting the forced labor of the gulags)
Domestic Ethos: Secular, Stratified (rhetorically egalitarian)
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist, Militaristic
French Republic (1938)
Gov. Type: Republic
Gov. Disposition: Liberal (Conservative)
Economic System: Market Capitalist
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Secular, quasi-Egalitarian, Mercenary
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist
The Empire of Japan (1938)
Gov. Type: Oligarchy (technically a theocratic-monarchy)
Gov. Disposition: Reactionary
Economic System: State Capitalist
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Religous, Stratified
Foreign Ethos: Xenophobic, Nationalist, Militaristic
United States of America (1965-70)
Gov. Type: Federal Republic
Gov. Disposition: Liberal (this side of Conservative)
Economic System: Social-market Capitalism (this side of Market Capitalism)
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Secular (with strong Religious elements), quasi-Egalitarian
Foreign Ethos: Xenophiles, Nationalist, Militaristic
Union of Socialist Soviet Republics (1965-70)
Gov. Type: Republic (technically a confederal republic, but definitely centralized and oligarchic)
Gov. Disposition: Authoritarian
Economic System: State Socialist
Labor Policy: Employed
Domestic Ethos: Secular, Stratified (rhetorically Egalitarian)
Foreign Ethos: Nationalist, Militaristic
Reality doesn't fit in such nice and easy categories, but I think this is fairly accurate.
I'll post later, I've gotta go to work....
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Impaler
- Creative Contributor
- Posts: 1060
- Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:40 am
- Location: Tucson, Arizona USA
Humans tend to use
Gov - Despotism, Republic, Confederacy
Legal - Aristocratic, Corruption, Judicial
Econ - Lasie-Fare, Planned, Fudal (Barter in primitive societies)
Labor - Forced, Wage, Faith (Vasal and Caste in primitive societies)
As you can see only 3-4 choices cover all the traditional human societies, the rest of the stuff is very alien and that is on purpose. If you have read much of the Race Creation forums you will realize that we are going to be dealing with very bizzar societies their. Also note that the very clear destinction between groups (Each answers a very different question) their is almost no possibility of a self contradictory combination such a "Secular Theocracy" or "Liberal Totolitarianism". Each catagory is independed of the others and the player may choose any combinatin not prohibited by their racial Anathamas. Lastly I feel their is a great deal of name colishion in METs List, the names will have to be revised before its a workable system.
If we want 7 choices in each catagory then we only need 1 additional, Lega, Economic and Labor choice to the list I have produced and we would be done.
Gov - Despotism, Republic, Confederacy
Legal - Aristocratic, Corruption, Judicial
Econ - Lasie-Fare, Planned, Fudal (Barter in primitive societies)
Labor - Forced, Wage, Faith (Vasal and Caste in primitive societies)
As you can see only 3-4 choices cover all the traditional human societies, the rest of the stuff is very alien and that is on purpose. If you have read much of the Race Creation forums you will realize that we are going to be dealing with very bizzar societies their. Also note that the very clear destinction between groups (Each answers a very different question) their is almost no possibility of a self contradictory combination such a "Secular Theocracy" or "Liberal Totolitarianism". Each catagory is independed of the others and the player may choose any combinatin not prohibited by their racial Anathamas. Lastly I feel their is a great deal of name colishion in METs List, the names will have to be revised before its a workable system.
If we want 7 choices in each catagory then we only need 1 additional, Lega, Economic and Labor choice to the list I have produced and we would be done.
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune
Impaler said: "Lastly I feel their is a great deal of name colishion in METs List, the names will have to be revised before its a workable system."
I'm not quite sure what you mean. But let me assure you that I chose the names I did carefully in order to make certain important distinctions between government types and economic systems.
Your own proposal would allow "...almost no possibility of a self contradictory combination such a 'Secular Theocracy' or 'Liberal Totolitarianism'."
Yes, and for the most part I agree with this statement, but a 'corrupt confederation' leaves me curious. It was stated that such a government type offered protection against the oppression of "individual portions."
I did address this concern myself when Ran Taro first brought it up. I suggested that starting from the type of government chosen, each subsequent choice would be limited accordingly. (Ex.: Despotism would disallow, among others, libertarianism, free-market capitalism, federal socialism, associative labor, egalitarianism, etc.) And regarding 'Liberal Totalitarianism', I listed both as choices to be made in the Governmental Disposition sub-category. You could only choose one disposition, liberal or totalitarian.
Let me explain precisely why I constructed my post as I did.
First, I did not want to conflate the state with society.The state is not society, but the state is a social institution, just as the model of political economy is a social institution also. I intentionally divided the matter into three categories, each with two sub-categories.
The State
— Government Type
— Government Disposition
Political Economy
— Economic System
— Labor Policy
Social Disposition
— Domestic Ethos
— Foreign Ethos
The state behaves as though it is society's sovereign institution, and asserts its sovereignty by means of government, which then claims the right to enforce law.
The issues related to the state then are:
1. Which individual members of society are enfranchised, and what, precisely, does the franchise entitle these citizens to do? These questions are answered by the form of government.
2. How do the individual political entities or subdivisions of the state interact? How do communities, cities, regions, and constituent states interact? Are they answerable to a centralized government or are they sovereign confederates? These questions are answered by intrastate politics.
3. How are governmental actions made known? This is answered by its body of law.
4. How does the government enforce those laws? This is answered by the legal/judicial system, and perhaps by means of coercion, as with the police or military.
I decided to combine 1. and 2. into Government Type. I do not refer to Confederation and Federation as government types because while they do address intrastate politics, they do not speak to the relationship of the citizens themselves to the state. So that is why I speak of Republics and Federal Republics, etc. Each addresses the relationship of the citizens to state (1.), and of political subdivisions to each other and to a central government (2.).
Secondly, I decided to combine 3. and 4. into Governmental Disposition to simplify matters of law. Are the laws harsh, intrusive, and harshly enforced, or not? If yes, then the government's disposition is authoritarian, or worse, if not, then the government is liberal.
(I left out anarchy as a government type because it is antithetical to both the state and government.)
Political-Economy. Economic matters are political regardless of their direct relationship to the state. Economic institutions establish policies in order to direct the allocation of resources and to apply labor to those resources, etc.
These are the most important economic issues, I think:
1. Property ownership. Who owns the property? What effect does ownership have on the governance of that property?
2. Production, distribution and exchange. By what means are goods produced, distributed and services rendered? By what means are transactions accounted for?
3. Labor. How is labor employed to produce goods and render services? What is the relationship between laborers and/or between labor and capital? Who sets labor-related policies?
Before I edited my initial post, I had each of the three as separate sub-categories, but decided to combined 1. and 2. as the Economic System, and left 3. as Labor Policy. So that's why I speak of, say, State Capitalism, Market Capitalism, and Social-market Capitalism. The name of each addresses ownership and means of production, distribution, exchange. In truth, I suppose, Labor Policy could be set here as well, but I wanted symmetry — three categories, each with two sub-categories.
Finally, with Social Disposition — Ethos — I wanted to address the internal and external concerns of the populace separately. Again, I did this for symmetry. I listed each option next to its polar opposite. (If your populace, for example, is one of xenophobes, it cannot simultaneously be one of xenophiles.)
As for the names, I could change them, but would have to do it in such a way as to keep the meaning intact and, as I'm dealing primarily with human institutions, I'd like to keep a certain historical continuity as well without lapsing into the ridiculous, such as naming systems Marxist-Leninism and Anglo-Saxon Capitalism.
Mercantilism would, I think now, be much better than the Feudal Market. Mercantilism occured in that period of time when strong aristocratic land holdings coincided with the rise of the bourgeiosie and the monarch still had a great deal of power in the economic realm. Such a name expresses well my intent.
Again, I have not addressed alien government types, except in passing, because it would require a critique I'm not yet ready to make.
I'm not quite sure what you mean. But let me assure you that I chose the names I did carefully in order to make certain important distinctions between government types and economic systems.
Your own proposal would allow "...almost no possibility of a self contradictory combination such a 'Secular Theocracy' or 'Liberal Totolitarianism'."
Yes, and for the most part I agree with this statement, but a 'corrupt confederation' leaves me curious. It was stated that such a government type offered protection against the oppression of "individual portions."
I did address this concern myself when Ran Taro first brought it up. I suggested that starting from the type of government chosen, each subsequent choice would be limited accordingly. (Ex.: Despotism would disallow, among others, libertarianism, free-market capitalism, federal socialism, associative labor, egalitarianism, etc.) And regarding 'Liberal Totalitarianism', I listed both as choices to be made in the Governmental Disposition sub-category. You could only choose one disposition, liberal or totalitarian.
Let me explain precisely why I constructed my post as I did.
First, I did not want to conflate the state with society.The state is not society, but the state is a social institution, just as the model of political economy is a social institution also. I intentionally divided the matter into three categories, each with two sub-categories.
The State
— Government Type
— Government Disposition
Political Economy
— Economic System
— Labor Policy
Social Disposition
— Domestic Ethos
— Foreign Ethos
The state behaves as though it is society's sovereign institution, and asserts its sovereignty by means of government, which then claims the right to enforce law.
The issues related to the state then are:
1. Which individual members of society are enfranchised, and what, precisely, does the franchise entitle these citizens to do? These questions are answered by the form of government.
2. How do the individual political entities or subdivisions of the state interact? How do communities, cities, regions, and constituent states interact? Are they answerable to a centralized government or are they sovereign confederates? These questions are answered by intrastate politics.
3. How are governmental actions made known? This is answered by its body of law.
4. How does the government enforce those laws? This is answered by the legal/judicial system, and perhaps by means of coercion, as with the police or military.
I decided to combine 1. and 2. into Government Type. I do not refer to Confederation and Federation as government types because while they do address intrastate politics, they do not speak to the relationship of the citizens themselves to the state. So that is why I speak of Republics and Federal Republics, etc. Each addresses the relationship of the citizens to state (1.), and of political subdivisions to each other and to a central government (2.).
Secondly, I decided to combine 3. and 4. into Governmental Disposition to simplify matters of law. Are the laws harsh, intrusive, and harshly enforced, or not? If yes, then the government's disposition is authoritarian, or worse, if not, then the government is liberal.
(I left out anarchy as a government type because it is antithetical to both the state and government.)
Political-Economy. Economic matters are political regardless of their direct relationship to the state. Economic institutions establish policies in order to direct the allocation of resources and to apply labor to those resources, etc.
These are the most important economic issues, I think:
1. Property ownership. Who owns the property? What effect does ownership have on the governance of that property?
2. Production, distribution and exchange. By what means are goods produced, distributed and services rendered? By what means are transactions accounted for?
3. Labor. How is labor employed to produce goods and render services? What is the relationship between laborers and/or between labor and capital? Who sets labor-related policies?
Before I edited my initial post, I had each of the three as separate sub-categories, but decided to combined 1. and 2. as the Economic System, and left 3. as Labor Policy. So that's why I speak of, say, State Capitalism, Market Capitalism, and Social-market Capitalism. The name of each addresses ownership and means of production, distribution, exchange. In truth, I suppose, Labor Policy could be set here as well, but I wanted symmetry — three categories, each with two sub-categories.
Finally, with Social Disposition — Ethos — I wanted to address the internal and external concerns of the populace separately. Again, I did this for symmetry. I listed each option next to its polar opposite. (If your populace, for example, is one of xenophobes, it cannot simultaneously be one of xenophiles.)
As for the names, I could change them, but would have to do it in such a way as to keep the meaning intact and, as I'm dealing primarily with human institutions, I'd like to keep a certain historical continuity as well without lapsing into the ridiculous, such as naming systems Marxist-Leninism and Anglo-Saxon Capitalism.
Mercantilism would, I think now, be much better than the Feudal Market. Mercantilism occured in that period of time when strong aristocratic land holdings coincided with the rise of the bourgeiosie and the monarch still had a great deal of power in the economic realm. Such a name expresses well my intent.
Again, I have not addressed alien government types, except in passing, because it would require a critique I'm not yet ready to make.
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Impaler
- Creative Contributor
- Posts: 1060
- Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:40 am
- Location: Tucson, Arizona USA
By Name colishion I ment the repeated use of the same word as part of a hyphenated word. For Example "Capitalism" is used in several larger words "Market-Capitalizm" and "State Capitalism" and (a double colision) "Social-Market-Capitalism. These names need simplifying, I feel all out systems should be one word idealy and if two are needed never alow it to be re-used someware else. The words "Free-Market" "State Control" and "Socialism" would be much simpler even if they do not perfectly convey the sophisticated meaning.
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune
Yaromir (the name means 'spring-peace,' or 'spring-world,' right?): You're welcome!
Impaler, I figured that was probably what you meant. The terms I used, however, are those typically used in discussions of political science today. They are used to make some subtle and some not-so-subtle distinctions.
How would these terms do instead?
Corporatism for State Capitalism. (Mussolini said Fascism, more properly named, was Corporatism.)
Capitalism for Market or Laissez-faire Capitalism.
The Social Market for Social-market Capitalism. (Both of these terms are used frequently to describe the capitalist systems which predominate in Europe today. The political ideology which is associated with this model is usually called Social Liberalism.)
Socialism for State Socialism.
Mutualism for Market Socialism. (Mutuellisme was the market socialist system described by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.)
Communism for Federal Socialism. (Communism refers to the abolition of the money economy and the establishment of a community of goods.)
Also, regarding alien governments, etc., I was thinking that each alien race might have its own unique set for government/economy/ethos. Some will be similar to the human systems but would have not only different names but also slightly different bonuses/penalties.
For example there was one alien race posted (I forget which) that spoke of 'queens' that ruled their fiefs together in a highly cooperative confederacy. On the Human list that would correspond roughly with Monarchy, but on the Alien list it might be listed as Matriarchy instead.
I feel that this would give each race its own unique 'history' and 'character'.
Thanks.
Impaler, I figured that was probably what you meant. The terms I used, however, are those typically used in discussions of political science today. They are used to make some subtle and some not-so-subtle distinctions.
How would these terms do instead?
Corporatism for State Capitalism. (Mussolini said Fascism, more properly named, was Corporatism.)
Capitalism for Market or Laissez-faire Capitalism.
The Social Market for Social-market Capitalism. (Both of these terms are used frequently to describe the capitalist systems which predominate in Europe today. The political ideology which is associated with this model is usually called Social Liberalism.)
Socialism for State Socialism.
Mutualism for Market Socialism. (Mutuellisme was the market socialist system described by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon.)
Communism for Federal Socialism. (Communism refers to the abolition of the money economy and the establishment of a community of goods.)
Also, regarding alien governments, etc., I was thinking that each alien race might have its own unique set for government/economy/ethos. Some will be similar to the human systems but would have not only different names but also slightly different bonuses/penalties.
For example there was one alien race posted (I forget which) that spoke of 'queens' that ruled their fiefs together in a highly cooperative confederacy. On the Human list that would correspond roughly with Monarchy, but on the Alien list it might be listed as Matriarchy instead.
I feel that this would give each race its own unique 'history' and 'character'.
Thanks.
Hrm...you know a Slavic language?Yaromir (the name means 'spring-peace,' or 'spring-world,' right?)
Yaro = Yarilo = Ancient Slavic god of the sun/sun itself (like Aton for Egyptians)
Mir = world or peace, as you said.
Yaromir = Sunny World
I find your posts verrrrry englightening, not to mention the joy of meeting a person who is familiar with Proudhon's work.
Staying awake and aware is perhaps the hardest thing to do.