Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

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Oberlus
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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#31 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 10:56 pm So indeed making the basic population production matter more and the population-dependant a bit lower may be a good recalibration.
I don't understand, "basic population production" is pop-dependant. Do you mean the fixed 0.5*pop production at the HW that is fixed?
The only problem I see is that by nerfing production and research bonus it makes them much less relevant compared to their research cost, so going full military early rather than trying to build a research/production base risk to be the only viable strategy.
We know that, it's explained in the PR.
Anyways, try it yourself: start a standard SP game and go full military (hulls, weapons, armour) instead of colonizing and researching some economy. Real feedback will be appreciated.
Remember that at early game, the population numbers are not very high, so the bonus that each tech gives is usually very small.
And so the nerf takes out little production.
Having nearly the same production whether one managed to get a Blue-starred Solar Orbital Generator or just went for higher level military technologies is not making the game neither diverse nor fun.
You won't have "nearly the same production". +0.15*pop from that blue-SOG, when you first got the starting +0.2*pop plus the +0.1 from Rob. Prod. and Fusion Gen. means an increase of 50% of the pop-based production. The problem is that flat bonuses are much bigger (if they stay at +5 from AA and +10 from GGG), but that's being handled with another PR. Subject to more balance after more playtesting.

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LienRag
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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#32 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:33 pm
LienRag wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 10:56 pm So indeed making the basic population production matter more and the population-dependant a bit lower may be a good recalibration.
I don't understand, "basic population production" is pop-dependant. Do you mean the fixed 0.5*pop production at the HW that is fixed?
I mean, the base production of any planet, even one with ultimate traits species, is extremely low without the different boni.
At early game and without AA, GGGs or a good SOG only the Homeworld is actually able to produce significantly.

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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#33 Post by UrshMost »

My $.02 as someone who has been playing single player for couple years now; on big maps with lots of AIs and most options set to random;

The 2020-05-26 build means a lot slower game vs a build from last month, and for me right now, is not nearly as fun. Turns take just as long for the computer to process, but not nearly as much gets built during a turn due to the recent production nerf, and it seems to really make the game drag out. It feels like in Civ when you change the setting from a normal length game to an epic length game .
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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#34 Post by Oberlus »

UrshMost wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 12:25 am My $.02 as someone who has been playing single player for couple years now; on big maps with lots of AIs and most options set to random;

The 2020-05-26 build means a lot slower game vs a build from last month, and for me right now, is not nearly as fun. Turns take just as long for the computer to process, but not nearly as much gets built during a turn due to the recent production nerf, and it seems to really make the game drag out. It feels like in Civ when you change the setting from a normal length game to an epic length game .
To get a faster paced game, you can change cost of techs, hulls, parts and buildings in balance tab at galaxy setup. Current default values are 2.0 for techs and 1.0 for the rest. Make them 1.0 and 0.5 to go twice as fast. Please, try that out (or play with the numbers) and report back.
The purpose of the nerf is not to make game slower but to reduce snowballing (which has been achieved to some extent, now there are no killing techs that double or triple output in a blink). We might need to change the default values of those cost factors to get a better experience, so your feedback is appreciated.

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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#35 Post by Morlic »

I think the RP production techs need some tweaks.

Current RP tech progression is something like:
0.2/pop base
0.05/pop algo elegance
+1 flat NAI
+3 flat Artificial minds

The time you get Artificial Minds, it is equivalent to 12 (average) pop on research focus. It will easily double your RP output when you get it, even more if you use industry focus heavily.

With Symbiotic Biology and subterranean habitation, planets with good habitability are at 5/10/15/20/25 pop cap.
So, the tech is equivalent to getting a free, fully populated, medium sized good planet for each planet you already own, including poor habitability and those on growth/industry focus. That seems slightly excessive.


Some ideas for better balance:
1) Split Artificial minds into multiple upgrades, preventing too sudden spikes in the RP output and balancing pop-based and flat boni with each other
2) Require research focus for flat boni
3) Access to more RP/pop techs early on
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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#36 Post by Oberlus »

Morlic wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:40 pm I think the RP production techs need some tweaks.

The time you get Artificial Minds, it is equivalent to 12 (average) pop on research focus. It will easily double your RP output when you get it, even more if you use industry focus heavily.

So, the tech is equivalent to getting a free, fully populated, medium sized good planet for each planet you already own, including poor habitability and those on growth/industry focus. That seems slightly excessive.


Some ideas for better balance:
1) Split Artificial minds into multiple upgrades, preventing too sudden spikes in the RP output and balancing pop-based and flat boni with each other
2) Require research focus for flat boni
3) Access to more RP/pop techs early on
I agree. My current playtesting gets exactly that: roughly double current RP when you get Artificial Minds.
I think final flat bonus should be +3 (instead of current +4) and need three techs insteads of two (so +1, +1 and +1). That's more in line with pop-based progression. The third tech could be something like "Big" AI, dunno what word to use there. Omniscient AI seems overkilling. Singularity AI?
Alternatively, letting NAI be a single tech for +2 (insteaf of splitting it into two +1) and requiring research focus.

Either way, it requires reworking descriptions. And get more artwork (already a need).

Sentient automation is also a bit OP. It could be nerfed to +3 (so Adaptive and Sentient together gives +5). Together with the other situational flat bonuses (micrograv. ind and orb. gen) maximum flat bonus per planet would be +12.

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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#37 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:53 pmThe third tech could be something like "Big" AI, dunno what word to use there. Omniscient AI seems overkilling. Singularity AI?
Artificial Super-Intelligence?
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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#38 Post by Oberlus »

Superintelligence?

Superintelligent Agents?
Oberlus wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:53 pm Alternatively, letting NAI be a single tech for +2 (instead of splitting it into two +1) and requiring research focus.
This is still rather powerful, even with the research focus req.
It shall be split into two techs of +1, one of them late game:
- NAI: +1, no focus.
- Art. Minds: +1, focus.
- Superintelligent Agents (?): +1, no focus. Some 400-500 RPs, requiring Art. Minds and something else maybe.

Letting Quantum Networking be researched earlier is also interesting/necessary.

And, as pointed out by UrshMost, game is considerably slower than before the nerf. It doesn't feel like it until turn 20+, and is quite noticeably from turn 100 an on.
I'll change default values of tech/hulls/parts/buildings cost (the balance rules).

I'll try it all together and make a PR.

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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#39 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:32 am Superintelligence?

Superintelligent Agents?
- Superintelligent Agents (?): +1, no focus. Some 400-500 RPs, requiring Art. Minds and something else maybe.
How about "Planetary Superintelligence", requiring Artificial Minds and Gaia Transformation?
And, as pointed out by UrshMost, game is considerably slower than before the nerf. It doesn't feel like it until turn 20+, and is quite noticeably from turn 100 an on.
I'll change default values of tech/hulls/parts/buildings cost (the balance rules).

I'll try it all together and make a PR.
If your'e going to change the default values it might be pertinent to follow this suggestion here:
Vezzra wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 3:58 pm For example, let's start with a base resource output of 1 per pop (for pop based boni) for the focus setting. And have pop based boni granted by techs, buildings and specials in the range of 0.02 (very small boni) to 0.2 (very big boni).
And kill two birds with one stone.
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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#40 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:45 pm How about "Planetary Superintelligence", requiring Artificial Minds and Gaia Transformation?
Fluff, please?
labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:45 pm If your'e going to change the default values it might be pertinent to follow this suggestion here:
Vezzra wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 3:58 pm For example, let's start with a base resource output of 1 per pop (for pop based boni) for the focus setting. And have pop based boni granted by techs, buildings and specials in the range of 0.02 (very small boni) to 0.2 (very big boni).
And kill two birds with one stone.
That would make game even slower.

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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#41 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:38 pm
labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:45 pm How about "Planetary Superintelligence", requiring Artificial Minds and Gaia Transformation?
Fluff, please?
Planetary Superintelligence: after understanding the self-sustaining feedback mechanisms of gaia planets and the creation of true artificial minds we are able to create a planetary-scale superintelligence from existing global data networks.
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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#42 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:53 pm Planetary Superintelligence: after understanding the self-sustaining feedback mechanisms of gaia planets and the creation of true artificial minds we are able to create a planetary-scale superintelligence from existing global data networks.
I like that a lot, thank you.

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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#43 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:55 pm
labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:53 pm Planetary Superintelligence: after understanding the self-sustaining feedback mechanisms of gaia planets and the creation of true artificial minds we are able to create a planetary-scale superintelligence from existing global data networks.
I like that a lot, thank you.
Thanks, no problem.
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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#44 Post by UrshMost »

Oberlus wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 1:06 am
UrshMost wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 12:25 am My $.02 as someone who has been playing single player for couple years now; on big maps with lots of AIs and most options set to random;

The 2020-05-26 build means a lot slower game vs a build from last month, and for me right now, is not nearly as fun. Turns take just as long for the computer to process, but not nearly as much gets built during a turn due to the recent production nerf, and it seems to really make the game drag out. It feels like in Civ when you change the setting from a normal length game to an epic length game .
To get a faster paced game, you can change cost of techs, hulls, parts and buildings in balance tab at galaxy setup. Current default values are 2.0 for techs and 1.0 for the rest. Make them 1.0 and 0.5 to go twice as fast. Please, try that out (or play with the numbers) and report back.
The purpose of the nerf is not to make game slower but to reduce snowballing (which has been achieved to some extent, now there are no killing techs that double or triple output in a blink). We might need to change the default values of those cost factors to get a better experience, so your feedback is appreciated.
I've been trying out some different values and

building cost .5
tech cost 1.4
part cost .5

seems to work pretty well. Its not exactly like it was but doesn't seem to drag later on any more. The tech cost at 1.4 is more powerful than what it was but it works for now until things settle down again.
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Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#45 Post by Oberlus »

UrshMost wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:42 pm I've been trying out some different values and

building cost .5
tech cost 1.4
part cost .5

seems to work pretty well. Its not exactly like it was but doesn't seem to drag later on any more. The tech cost at 1.4 is more powerful than what it was but it works for now until things settle down again.
What species do you use? Do you focus more planets on production or on research? How big and dense (total systems and systems per empire) are your galaxies?
Making research 1.4 (-30%) and the production costs 0.5 (-50%) means that building things is cheaper than getting techs. I haven't made numbers, but I'm wary of changing current balance between production and research. Since the nerf means that the HW production keeps having a larger weight on total stats for longer, I'm worried turning the scales towards production might encourage going military and postpone getting research/production boosts.

Edit: I've been testing 0.5 and 1.0 and it gets relatively fast.

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