Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderator: Oberlus

Message
Author
User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5715
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#1 Post by Oberlus »

Let's assume we remove every tech that gives a bonus to production or research. Then, the only way to increase those meters would be through increasing population by expansion (more colonies) and growth techs (more population per colony).
Each increasing-population tech gives a +1 or +2 per planet size (to some or all environments) so you never get a huge boost to the total population (+1*N_COLONIES).
Coupled with an steady colonisation process, you get a superlinear increase in total population, and thus you also get a superlinear increase on research and production (even without research/production techs).

The techs that increase production&research do not follow the same figures than the techs that increase population. At first you get small increases and then huge ones (+0.1*population, then +0.2*pop... +0.5*pop...). So when you have 1-2 colonies you get increases around +10% or +20%, when you have around 10 colonies you are getting +50%. So we are coupling two superlinear effects, and thus at some point the production or research output graphs (x=time, y=output) show a function similar to constant^x (i.e. way faster than x^constant, that is already snowballing).

My point: I think that by making the production&research increases more constant (and keeping their current research/production costs), the snowball effect could be greatly mitigated (if that is desired*).

Starting suggestion (for eventual discussion):
- Algorithmic Elegance: +0.1*pop (as now)
- Black Hole Power Gen.: +0.3*pop (down from +1.0)
- Collective Network: +0.2*pop (down from +1.25)
- Distributed Thought: +0.1*pop (as now)
- Enclave of the Void: +0.2*pop (down from +0.75)
- Energy Metabolism (prod/res): +0.1/+0.2*pop (down from +0.2/+0.5)
- Fusion Generation: +0.1*pop (down from +0.2)
- Hyperdam: +0.2*pop (down from +1.0)
- Industrial Center (I/II/III): +0.1/0.2/0.3*pop (down from +0.2/0.4/0.6)
- Quantum Networking: +0.1*pop (down from +0.5)
- Robotic Production: +0.1*pop (as now)
- Solar Orbital Generator (red/yellow/blue): +0.1/0.15/0.2*pop (down from +0.1/0.2/0.4)
- Stellar Tomography (red/blue/neutron/black): +0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4*pop (down from +0.2/0.5/0.75/1)

Basically, make +0.2 every building/tech with extra requirements or very late game, and +0.1 the rest.

* I would desire it.

Edit: Added missing Quantum Networking, changed BHPG +0.3 (instead of +0.2) and SOG +0.1/0.15/0.2 (instead of +0.1/0.2/0.3).
Last edited by Oberlus on Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jaumito
Space Kraken
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 3:42 am
Location: Catalonia, France, Europe, Earth, Sol, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Virgo Cluster

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#2 Post by Jaumito »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:53 pm - Black Hole Power Gen.: +0.2*pop (down from +1.0)
- Solar Orbital Generator (red/yellow/blue): +0.1/0.2/0.3*pop (down from +0.1/0.2/0.4)
It would make sense to have at least BHPG top SOG (+0.4*pop?) - you get the tech way later, most of the time you first have to collapse a red star to be able to build one. A much larger investment should bring a (even if slightly) larger reward.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 6095
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#3 Post by Vezzra »

I've been suggesting to drastically nerf the resource output boni for a long time. My approach would be to increase the basic resource output rate, and decrease the boni granted by techs/specials/etc. I've been thinking along the lines of having resource output boni in the range of 0.02 to 0.2 per pop (instead of 0.1 to 1, which is what we have now). Maybe, in very rare cases, up to 0.5 per pop, as a super special bonus for an extremely hard to get late game tech, or something like that.

That should go a long way to significantly flatten the resource output increase curves.

The current boni are ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced. The reason for that is actually quite simple: Originally there had been 4 basic resource types: food, minerals, industry and research. The tech tree was roughly balanced to account for that. However, when we discarded minerals and food, we didn't rebalance the tech tree accordingly, but just switched techs that gave boni to food or minerals to give boni to pop or industry. The end result is the mess we have now.

So, basically, yes, I too am very much in favor of such changes. The challenge here are the required adjustments to the AI, which I expect to be far from trivial. Furthermore, with the introduction of Influence and colony upkeep mechanics in the next release cycle, the tech tree is going to need a thorough rebalancing pass anyway, so there has been no point in investing too much effort in that endeavour before.

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#4 Post by labgnome »

I'd reduce Algorithmic Elegance to +0.05*pop, Black Hole Power Gen. to +0.2*pop, Distributed Network to +0.05*pop, Industrial Center (I/II/III) to +0.1/0.15/0.2*pop, Robotic Production to +0.05*pop, Solar Orbital Generator (red/yellow/blue) to +0.05/0.1/0.15*pop, Stellar Tomography (red/blue/neutron/black) to +0.05/0.1/0.15/0.2*pop.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

ThinkSome
Psionic Snowflake
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#5 Post by ThinkSome »

+1

Make hyperspatial dam 0.25-0.3/pop, as it is a substitute for BHG and decreases pop.

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#6 Post by labgnome »

Possibly off topic: what about the specials with pop-based bonuses?
  • Computronium Moon: +0.02*pop (down from 0.2*pop)
  • Honeycomb: +0.05*pop (down from 0.5*pop)
  • Temporal Anomaly: +0.2*pop (down from 5*pop)
  • Tidally Locked: +0.02*pop (down from 0.2*pop)
-edit, forgot tidally locked.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

ThinkSome
Psionic Snowflake
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#7 Post by ThinkSome »

labgnome wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 2:41 pm Possibly off topic: what about the specials with pop-based bonuses?
  • Temporal Anomaly: +0.2*pop (down from 5*pop)
TA only works for the planet in question and severely reduces target population. I think 5*pop is okay for it.

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#8 Post by labgnome »

ThinkSome wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 2:59 pm
labgnome wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 2:41 pm Possibly off topic: what about the specials with pop-based bonuses?
  • Temporal Anomaly: +0.2*pop (down from 5*pop)
TA only works for the planet in question and severely reduces target population. I think 5*pop is okay for it.
5*pop is a lot for anything, maybe 0.5*pop.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

ThinkSome
Psionic Snowflake
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#9 Post by ThinkSome »

-5/-10/-15/-20/-25 is the pop reduction... quite severe.

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#10 Post by labgnome »

ThinkSome wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:08 pm -5/-10/-15/-20/-25 is the pop reduction... quite severe.
True, but 0.5*pop would be more than any tech special gives. We are trying to flatten the exponential curve here.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

ThinkSome
Psionic Snowflake
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#11 Post by ThinkSome »

This special only applies to its planet's population, it doesen't make the whole empire gain 5*empire_pop research.

... and it needs a lot of growth techs to be inhabitable, so it is a late-game bonus. And by then one should already have 100-200 RP

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#12 Post by labgnome »

ThinkSome wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 3:44 pm This special only applies to its planet's population, it doesen't make the whole empire gain 5*empire_pop research.

... and it needs a lot of growth techs to be inhabitable, so it is a late-game bonus. And by then one should already have 100-200 RP
True, but part of the idea is to not have 100-200 RP by that point in the game. With these proposed chances a bonus of 5*pop would be terribly unbalanced, even for one planet. I think with the new number of 0.2*pop or 0.5*pop would be more in-line with the spirit of this proposal.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

ThinkSome
Psionic Snowflake
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#13 Post by ThinkSome »

The 100-200 RP was already considering these reductions. By that time it is common to already have 300-500

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#14 Post by labgnome »

ThinkSome wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:18 pm The 100-200 RP was already considering these reductions. By that time it is common to already have 300-500
Even so, 5*pop is too big with the proposed adjustments.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5715
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Make pro/res tech increases 0.1 or 0.2 (huge nerf)

#15 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:25 pm
ThinkSome wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 4:18 pm The 100-200 RP was already considering these reductions. By that time it is common to already have 300-500
Even so, 5*pop is too big with the proposed adjustments.
Don't worry, guys, my shiny spreadsheets will get the right values. Get a room you too and stop polluting the thread.

Post Reply