Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

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JonCST
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Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#1 Post by JonCST » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:05 am

Hi all. In a different board i raised the idea of putting some part of the PPs of scrapped ships into the Stockpile:

=====
What would people think of putting some portion of the [original] PP value of scrapped ships into the Stockpile?

Could be the cost of the hull, the hull plus equipment... which ever value is selected, maybe take a percentage off for demolition losses?

[...]

Should increase the number of scrapped ships by quite a bit, which would also maybe reduce the load on the server? As the number of ships proliferate, i'd expect the CPU usage to go up.
=====

Oberius was kind enough to respond:

>>>>>
I'd suggest adding a game rule for the percentage of base cost of the whole ship (hull+parts) that goes into stockpile. Thus, a 0% would be like current implementation. Basing it on base cost (without the upkeep increase) would avoid any chance to get more PPs than invested (I mean, by building many of the cheapest ship possible before scrapping previously-built expensive ones).
Maybe you should open an issue (feature request) with your suggestion.
>>>>>

It would make sense to me to tie the amount of the ship's PP sent to the Stockpile into one of the existing Tech lines. Maybe Construction, e.g. if you have researched Orbital construction you'd get back 25%, Interstellar Logistics you'd get 50%, Galactic Infrastruction you'd get back 75%.

Another approach would make the amount of "recovered" PP depend on where you are: Scrap a ship in empty space and you get nothing for it. At an outpost you'd get 10%, at a colony 20%, on a colony with a shipyard 50%, and with a dry dock 80% (percentages chosen from thin air).

I don't think you should ever get back 100% of the price because of "demolition losses" and lowered quality of the recycled materials. Also, we need to keep in mind Oberius's point about building a large number of cheap ship to raise the returned PP of scrapping expensive ones.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

Jon

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Dilvish
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Re: Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#2 Post by Dilvish » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:33 am

The general idea of getting PP back from scrapping ships has been considered before and rejected, but I don't recall the exact reasoning for the decision at the time & it was before we had the Imp. Stockpile, so a new discussion is probably not unreasonable (but anyone wanting to advocate for it should research and link to the older discussions).

It's not something that could be simply scripted up as-is: there is no 'AboutToBeScrapped' ValueRef to use in scripting, nor could there be, since the sequence of relevant events is (i) player marks a ship to be scrapped, (ii) ship is scrapped, (iii) Effects are evaluated for the turn.

So the C++ engine would have to handle some or all of it when it does the scrapping. To allow some scripting control there could be a new Empire meter 'NewScrap', which would just reflect what had been scrapped earlier that same turn, and then techs could determine what happens with that.

Regarding the inflation of return value via maintenance mechanics, any return value should probably be based on base cost rather than maintenance--adjusted cost, but that's still not trivial to do since IIRC ship designs don't currently have a 'base cost' attribute (although such could be added). The meter could perhaps be tallied up based on full current cost at the empire capital (luckily current ships are generally location-invariant for cost), and the relevant scripts could attempt to back out the maintenance portion, but that would still be a messy approximation both with respect to the ship count used for maintenance and regarding the mix of colony-pod maintenance vs. regular maintenance.

I don't have any inherent objections to the concept, but the bang/buck in terms of gameplay_value/dev_time is not looking great to me.
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Re: Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#3 Post by Oberlus » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:30 pm

Jaumito wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:37 pm
JonCST wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:50 am
Could also make location based. Scrap in space, nothing. At outpost 10%, colony 20%, shipyard 50%, dry dock 80%?
Ahem, I was expecting this. It's not that the idea hasn't any merit, but we're heading into serious micro-management issues here - so if returns from scrapping is ever implemented, I hope it'll come as an optional feature.
JonCST wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:10 pm
Hi Jaumito, Thanks for taking the time to respond.

> [...] micro managing [...]

Although i'm pretty new here, i have noticed that does seem to be an issue, and i kinda agree. FO does seem to strike a good balance here.

> [...] optional [...]

Well, like many other features, it's always possible not to use it, and just scrap ships regardless. But, avoiding micro-managing might be a good point for linking it to a tech rather than a location?

Thanks again.

Jon

I suggest tying it to a game rule (something that can be configured before a game starts, and with a default value that could be 0%) because that is IMO the best way to make it optional.

Regarding location, I would request just being under allied supply, so that no micromanagement is needed (no more than what you aleady have to, e.g., replenish your fuel or lost fighters).

Making the percentage of salvaged PPs dependant on techs might be a good idea, but maybe that could clash a bit with the game rule idea. I mean, to make it right it would require one game rule for each possible percentage depending on techs. I don't like it, I'd prefer simplicity. And if game rule says 0%, then the techs would be giving you... nothing? In the end, I'd go for the game rule and no techs affecting the scrapping return. Plus, I think it's a bit counterintuitive to need any tech to better scrap ships, it's just dismantling and reusing the materials.
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Re: Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#4 Post by Dilvish » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:41 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:30 pm
Making the percentage of salvaged PPs dependant on techs might be a good idea, but maybe that could clash a bit with the game rule idea. I mean, to make it right it would require one game rule for each possible percentage depending on techs.
I would instead suggest that the game rule be simply boolean, on/off, and that the percentage be controlled entirely by techs (though there could be a secondary rule for percentage, but I'm not crazy about that). The researchability of the techs could be gated by the game rule, so that with normal UI settings those techs would not show up on the tech window if you had the rule disabled.
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Re: Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#5 Post by Ophiuchus » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:05 pm

Scrapping ships for stockpile from an imperial stockpile point of view: this is much like the first iteration with input efficiency.

For stockpile, extraction is the limit, which would probably reached fast.

Also note that there is an input limit rule for stockpiling which probably wont play nice with scrapping if enabled (i.e. leading to micromanagement of scrapping ships).
But maybe that rule could get scrapped ;)

Not sure if adding a good-at-ship-recycling strategy as alternative to the distributed supply network to the stockpiling story makes much sense or not.
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Re: Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#6 Post by Oberlus » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:51 am

Dilvish wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:41 pm
I would instead suggest that the game rule be simply boolean, on/off, and that the percentage be controlled entirely by techs (though there could be a secondary rule for percentage, but I'm not crazy about that). The researchability of the techs could be gated by the game rule, so that with normal UI settings those techs would not show up on the tech window if you had the rule disabled.
Right, good idea.
But adding new techs only for the scrapping efficiency... I don't see it. I think it would be a very lonely tech branch (few would research it).
Tying it to existing techs (Imp. Stock. techs? seems like a good idea) could be better IMO. Would it be possible to hide/unhide the scrap-related descriptions and effects depending on the binary game rule?
Ophiuchus wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:05 pm
For stockpile, extraction is the limit, which would probably reached fast.

Also note that there is an input limit rule for stockpiling which probably wont play nice with scrapping if enabled (i.e. leading to micromanagement of scrapping ships).
But maybe that rule could get scrapped ;)

Not sure if adding a good-at-ship-recycling strategy as alternative to the distributed supply network to the stockpiling story makes much sense or not.
Ah, good insight.
For the micromanagement issue, I got this idea, but dunno if it would be possible or reasonable:

When a ship/fleet is market for scrapping, a special (very special) project would be automatically enqueued to the production list on next turn (at the same time than the ship/fleet is removed from game), with as many remaining turns N as necessary to not clash with the stockpile input rule, associated cost of 0 PP per turn, and the effect of adding efficiency*scrapped_base_cost/N PPs to the stockpile every turn. Manually removing the project could be forbidden or it could imply that the remaining PPs to be scrapped are lost.
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Re: Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#7 Post by Geoff the Medio » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:29 pm

Alternatively: The rule that enables stockpile input limits could also disable stockpiling by scrapping ships.

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Re: Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#8 Post by Ophiuchus » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:54 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:51 am
When a ship/fleet is market for scrapping, a special (very special) project would be automatically enqueued to the production list on next turn (at the same time than the ship/fleet is removed from game), with as many remaining turns N as necessary to not clash with the stockpile input rule, associated cost of 0 PP per turn, and the effect of adding efficiency*scrapped_base_cost/N PPs to the stockpile every turn. Manually removing the project could be forbidden or it could imply that the remaining PPs to be scrapped are lost.
I would rather have a scrap heap special which slowly automatically dissolves into the stockpile - but i am not convinced this would be scriptable (you would need to have access to how much PP are already scheduled to go into the stockpile) and has a lot of small issues. But I definitly would not want some c++ implementation just for such a corner case.
Geoff the Medio wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:29 pm
Alternatively: The rule that enables stockpile input limits could also disable stockpiling by scrapping ships.
Or trust on players to make reasonable choices when enabling extra rules.

I know people don't like to "waste" or let their stuff get "stale" and it probably gives more utility to stockpile extraction - thats about the best i can say about this feature.
Else could one give an example how scrapping ships makes the gameplay more interesting or is helping AI vs players?
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Re: Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#9 Post by Ophiuchus » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:06 pm

Dilvish wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:33 am
It's not something that could be simply scripted up as-is: there is no 'AboutToBeScrapped' ValueRef to use in scripting, nor could there be, since the sequence of relevant events is (i) player marks a ship to be scrapped, (ii) ship is scrapped, (iii) Effects are evaluated for the turn.
Would moving all scrapping of ships into FOCS be an option? So that at a certain priority the default scrapping happens, and there could be effects beforehand.

Something like And [Ship Scheduled ScrappingOrder] and destroy effect.
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Re: Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#10 Post by Dilvish » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:09 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:06 pm
Would moving all scrapping of ships into FOCS be an option? So that at a certain priority the default scrapping happens, and there could be effects beforehand.
Then ships marked for scrapping would still exist during the combat phase. It *could* be done, I suppose, but it seems like a rather big gameplay difference as an unwanted side effect.
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Re: Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#11 Post by em3 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:31 am

Dilvish wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:09 pm
Then ships marked for scrapping would still exist during the combat phase. It *could* be done, I suppose, but it seems like a rather big gameplay difference as an unwanted side effect.
I would be perfectly fine with that. More so, combat could actually prevent scrapping. Otherwise, a player could scrap all near-destroyed ships in a contested system to reclaim more PP than their current worth.
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Re: Put scrapped ships in Stockpile?

#12 Post by JonCST » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:42 am

Hi all.
em3 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:31 am
[...] combat could actually prevent scrapping. Otherwise, a player could scrap all near-destroyed ships in a contested system to reclaim more PP than their current worth.
I think scrapping during combat is called scuttling? You get no resources, but your opponent can't capture a usable ship.

Since we don't have capturing, that's kinda moot, but scrapping during combat yielding no PP works for me.

Interesting point about "more than current worth". Divide current structure by fully repaired structure, then multiply by base cost to get actual value? Beat-up ships with little structure remaining wouldn't yield many PP, ships with full structure would yield more.

The main reason i would find the whole put scrapped ships in stockpile ability useful, would mainly be to "upgrade" ships with parts which don't automagically upgrade as new tech is researched. You can't refit existing ships (mass-driver -> lasers/cannons/rays, nor stealth/scanners etc). As new tech makes old ships less useful, we can use them as "ablative shields", but often i'd prefer to scrap them and build new ones from the resulting PPs.

An alternative would be to somehow allow specifying that ships with technology X should be upgraded to technology Y (paying the difference in PP values + a small extra cost "to pull out the old equipment". Plus some time on the production queue?). But that seems at first glance to be even worse both for implementation and micro-managing opportunities.

I agree retrieving those PPs is not a high priority, just would be nice.

Thanks for listening to me ramble.

Jon

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