Paradigm shift growth special buildings

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Vezzra
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Re: Paradigm shift growth special buildings

#16 Post by Vezzra » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:57 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:46 am
One of the dichotomies (strategic choices) in FreeOrion, maybe the most important, is Research vs Production.
Well, in future there should be more variety than just Research vs Production. Influence should become an equally important resource, and focusing on an influence/diplomacy based strategy a viable way to victory.
If research-focused empires begin seeing how their efforts are shared with the enemy production-focused empires (that from start have some advantage in expansion and conquest), that could be a new balance problem.
But of course, yes, that's definitely something we need to take into consideration. The "tech leak" effect must not become too strong, so that focusing on a research based strategy does offer enough advantages to be a viable way to victory.

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Krikkitone
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Re: Paradigm shift growth special buildings

#17 Post by Krikkitone » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:24 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:49 pm
What's "rubber banding"?
Anything that
1. makes it harder to get ahead the farther ahead you already are
2. makes it easier to get ahead the farther behind you are

Like a rubber band connecting the first place and last place in a racing game.

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Vezzra
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Re: Paradigm shift growth special buildings

#18 Post by Vezzra » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:41 pm

Ah yes, thanks. So e.g. something like the cost increase for new technology in EU4 which you get if you are "ahead of your time" (historically).

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Re: Paradigm shift growth special buildings

#19 Post by Atarlost » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:55 am

Vezzra wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:49 pm
...or a very short tech tree to keep the game contested into the late game
Why? As long as there are mechanics in place which sufficiently deter certain empires to get too easily too far ahead in research, I don't see the problem with large tech tree. On the contrary, if research is to be an important factor until late game even in very long games, you absolutely need a very large tech tree. Right now we have the problem that you run out of useful things to research in late game. In sufficiently long games it's even quite easy to research the entire tech tree. That's not good IMO, although a problem practically all 4X space games I played had.
Research losing relevance is not a serious problem. Running out of tech to research defines an endgame stage, but doesn't suck all of the fun out of the game if multiple players reach this stage near enough the same time for victory to remain in contention. There are plenty of games that just don't have a research component at all but still manage to be fun. Someone achieving an insurmountable tech lead does suck all of the fun out of the game.

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Re: Paradigm shift growth special buildings

#20 Post by Vezzra » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:13 am

Atarlost wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:55 am
Research losing relevance is not a serious problem. Running out of tech to research defines an endgame stage, but doesn't suck all of the fun out of the game if multiple players reach this stage near enough the same time for victory to remain in contention.
Depends on what you see as a "serious problem". If by "not a serious problem" you mean "does not break the game", yeah, sure, it's not that serious.

But IMO it is a serious problem, because research is one of the central, essential game mechanics, and therefore must stay relevant until game over. Some 4X games (e.g. Stellaris) solve this by having infinitely repeatable techs at the end of the tech tree. Not the most exiting and fun solution, but still better than having research become completely irrelevant in late game.

The much better approach in my eyes is to have an extensive tech tree, large enough so it's almost impossible to research everything over the course of an average game.
There are plenty of games that just don't have a research component at all but still manage to be fun.
Sure, but in those games research isn't a central, essential game mechanic.
Someone achieving an insurmountable tech lead does suck all of the fun out of the game.
Also true, but a different issue, which needs to be dealt with separately. And the underlying problem is not one specific to research, but a general one you have with all mechanics where you can "build up". One can achieve an insurmountable lead in all kinds of areas, e.g. production, which would lead to the exact same problem (sucking the fun out of the game).

The point is to make it sufficiently difficult to achieve such an insurmountable lead, but not impossible. After all, striving to achieve such a lead is what you normally do in a 4X game to win, so it needs to be possible to do so.

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Re: Paradigm shift growth special buildings

#21 Post by Oberlus » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:34 am

Vezzra wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:13 am
The much better approach in my eyes is to have an extensive tech tree, large enough so it's almost impossible to research everything over the course of an average game.
That is also good for gameplay, regardless of the i-want-something-to-research-all-game issue (which I share), in the sense that it allows for more varied strategies in late game. I mean, currently, late game is always quite the same for everyone: you have all techs, several complementing species, and you just keep pumping out end-game ships and troops for a mostly tactical game. If game can be finished before completing the tech tree, that means each empire does not have all the techs, each one will have a subset of techs and hence possibly a different strategy.
Nevertheless, the "size" of the tech tree is not what matters here, it is the research costs. With current FO version, multiply by 10 all research costs (with the game rule) and you make current tech tree impossible to complete in an average game.

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Re: Paradigm shift growth special buildings

#22 Post by Vezzra » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:17 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:34 am
That is also good for gameplay, regardless of the i-want-something-to-research-all-game issue (which I share), in the sense that it allows for more varied strategies in late game. I mean, currently, late game is always quite the same for everyone: you have all techs, several complementing species, and you just keep pumping out end-game ships and troops for a mostly tactical game. If game can be finished before completing the tech tree, that means each empire does not have all the techs, each one will have a subset of techs and hence possibly a different strategy.
Yep, exactly my sentiments.
Nevertheless, the "size" of the tech tree is not what matters here, it is the research costs. With current FO version, multiply by 10 all research costs (with the game rule) and you make current tech tree impossible to complete in an average game.
While that would certainly solve the problem of being able to research the entire tech tree, that approach does not work because of balance. If techs get too expensive, the ROI thing breaks - you don't get sufficient benefits to make the investment of resources viable.

Meaning, setting colonies to research to gain RP to research techs wouldn't be a viable strategy anymore, because going full industry would be far more effective. While my puny neighbor empire struggles to get the first techs for some boni or better weapons, I set all my worlds to industry, expand like crazy, and overhelm said puny neighbor with numbers, which their small advantage in tech can never hope to compensate.

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Re: Paradigm shift growth special buildings

#23 Post by Oberlus » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:29 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:17 pm
that approach does not work because of balance. If techs get too expensive, the ROI thing breaks - you don't get sufficient benefits to make the investment of resources viable.
You're right. Benefits from techs must come at the same pace of benefits from expansion without research.
So yes, lets make a huge tech tree :D

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