Themed tech categories (Help wanted)

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderators: Oberlus, Oberlus

Message
Author
User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5143
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#61 Post by Vezzra » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:36 am

Oberlus wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:47 am
I refuse to miss your insights on anything we are talking.
Thanks :D
Keep in mind that this tech tree rework is a massive design work that will take a lot of time before any real implementation, so you indeed have time to participate in the discussions.
True, but it will be quite a while before I can rejoin the fun, and if the amount of discussion that has happened in the few weeks I've been absent is any indication, by the time I'm back, Leo Tolstoys "War and Peace" will pale in comparison to what I've to dig through the get up to speed... :shock: :wink:
Your Robotics is currently within Cybernetic (automation, AI, nanotech and other complex technologies).

Mech have the megastructures. It is more industrial than robotic in that sense. Even steampunk.
Sorry, confused the two. As I said, I only skimmed very quickly and superficially over the discussion. But yes, my "Robotics" and "Large Scale Building" overlaps very much with your "Cybernetics" and "Mech" themes. Although I think there would be subtle differences and nuances, my themes would probably more "narrow" in that they really completely lack certain things (going along with my general idea of having more, but more restricted/narrow/limited themes, and no single theme strategy possible).
Lithic can be the to-be-added Crystalline theme.
I'd see "Crystalline" related stuff as part/subset of the "Lithic" theme. "Lithic" would be more general, the entire asteroid hull line would fit in there. There could/would/should also be more asteroid related stuff: Asteroid Habitats (enabling colonizing asteroids), Advanced Asteroid Mining (of course other themes should also contain "Asteroid Mining" techs, but the Lithic theme should be best at asteroid mining), etc.
Maybe I should consider a splitting Energy into two, Physics and Psionics.
I'd definitely split Psionics off of Energy. Energy (or "Advanced Energy Manipulation" as I'd call the theme ;)) is where I'd put Lasers, Plasma weapons, (energy) shields (e.g. Deflectors and Plasma Shields, the current Blackshields on the other hand could belong to an entirely different theme), the Energy Hull line etc.

Psionics is a very different thing. There I'd put e.g. special psionic "weapons" (psionic attacks on enemy ships), mind control techs, powerful special Influence, diplomatic, espionage and sabotage techs, research/learning techs, techs that help manipulate/control population (supression of revolts, keeping the people in line with the government, that sort of thing :twisted:).
I think I can come up with some quite differentiated social/influence/diplomatic/trade "techs" for different trunks. E.g. Mechanical can have the concentration camps, Energy could have some late game influence project regarding a very bright star (non-stop supernova) visible from any planet in the galaxy, Biotec and/or Cybertec could have techs related to hive-mind, communism and the such. Etc.
While we certainly can and should incorporate some social/influence/diplomatic/trade related things into the themes you mention, I wouldn't pack all that into themes that are actually very technology related (technology in the more narrow sense of "Physics" and "Engineering"). I'd prefer to have some themes that are specifically focused on the social/etc. kind of techs. As lined out above, the Psionic theme could provide a lot of interesting ideas/possibilities in that area. Another idea could be "Advanced Psycho-Social Studies", dealing with things related e.g. to large scale psychological and social dynamics in large interstellar, multi-species societies (my inspiration for that is that "Psycho-Social" thing Asimov had in his Foundation triology - interesting SF-stuff, if you're into that kind of thing).

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#62 Post by labgnome » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:27 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:36 am
I'd see "Crystalline" related stuff as part/subset of the "Lithic" theme. "Lithic" would be more general, the entire asteroid hull line would fit in there. There could/would/should also be more asteroid related stuff: Asteroid Habitats (enabling colonizing asteroids), Advanced Asteroid Mining (of course other themes should also contain "Asteroid Mining" techs, but the Lithic theme should be best at asteroid mining), etc.
Currently the crystalline theme contains asteroid hulls and gets laser weapons. I dislike the "lithic" name as we already have the lithic metabolism and that could be confusing for players.
Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:36 am
I'd definitely split Psionics off of Energy. Energy (or "Advanced Energy Manipulation" as I'd call the theme ;)) is where I'd put Lasers, Plasma weapons, (energy) shields (e.g. Deflectors and Plasma Shields, the current Blackshields on the other hand could belong to an entirely different theme), the Energy Hull line etc.
I think psionics is fine in the energy theme. I'd be hesitant to branch it off into a whole different theme for a couple of reasons. Firstly, flavor wise: psionics should benefit telepathic species, which aren't all too common and you aren't guaranteed to get. I do not like the idea of some general "psionics" that everyone gets as telepathic species could use more flavor. Secondly, balance wise: I just don't see there being enough psionic technologies, at least currently to justify creating a whole new theme. right now as it stands each theme gets ships and weapons and ships and I really like it that way.
Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:36 am
While we certainly can and should incorporate some social/influence/diplomatic/trade related things into the themes you mention, I wouldn't pack all that into themes that are actually very technology related (technology in the more narrow sense of "Physics" and "Engineering"). I'd prefer to have some themes that are specifically focused on the social/etc. kind of techs. As lined out above, the Psionic theme could provide a lot of interesting ideas/possibilities in that area. Another idea could be "Advanced Psycho-Social Studies", dealing with things related e.g. to large scale psychological and social dynamics in large interstellar, multi-species societies (my inspiration for that is that "Psycho-Social" thing Asimov had in his Foundation triology - interesting SF-stuff, if you're into that kind of thing).
I think you are talking about a sort of theme/functional hybrid system, which now that I think I grok the theme system I would say I prefer less than purely themed or purely functional system. I'd rather go one rout or another. Personally I find a functional system more intuitive, but I can appreciate the aesthetics of the themed system. I'd say if we are going to have "themes" that focus on a single narrow area (like psionics) or are of the game (like a social) that we go to a functional system that will be more intuitive. Especially if we going to have a large number of trunks and want people to invest in more than one.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#63 Post by labgnome » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:27 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:55 am
As I already said at the beginning of this discussion, I don't think a single theme strategy should be possible. That would require us to pack everything essential (offensive and defensive systems, ships hulls, growth, construction, production, diplomacy etc.) into at least a reasonable number of themes/trunks that are supposed to make single theme strategies possible.
This is where I think we are on opposite pages. I think that a single-theme strategy should be possible. In fact my preference would be for single theme strategies to be encouraged. However I am willing to go for a singe-theme as a sub-optimal, but still possible, strategy. These are theme-based/flavor, not functional categories.
Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:55 am
"Deep" would be researching only into a very low (2, 3, 4?) number of trunks, but researching those very far. That means a high degree of specialization, which can be more vulnerable against opposing strategies because your options to counter are more limited, the advantage would be you get to more of the more powerful high-end techs.

"Broad" would be researching more themes/trunks, but not getting so far in most of them (only in maybe one or two). That means a lesser degree of specialization, which gives you less of the more powerful high-end techs, but you gain more flexibility in countering enemy strategies, because you have more different options.
Right now as it stands there are 5 tech themes/trunks, and I'd be hesitant to add more. A low number is 1 or 2; 3 or 4 is most of the themes. I think that we have enough categories enough for a themed system. I am also concerned about disrupting the nice arrangement that the fit into 6 or 9 tiers, with tech being easily slotted into early, mid and late game. We have a really nice organizational system going here and I don't want to see it thrown out the window.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5143
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#64 Post by Vezzra » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:46 pm

labgnome wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:27 pm
I dislike the "lithic" name as we already have the lithic metabolism and that could be confusing for players.
I never thought that "Lithic" would end up as the actual name we use, it's just a term I use so we all know what we're talking about. "Advanced Mineralogy", "Advanced Lithic Studies", or whatever we finally come up with. I just intuitively think of "Crystalline" techs as a subset of "rock/stone" techs, that's all.
I think psionics is fine in the energy theme. I'd be hesitant to branch it off into a whole different theme for a couple of reasons. Firstly, flavor wise: psionics should benefit telepathic species, which aren't all too common and you aren't guaranteed to get. I do not like the idea of some general "psionics" that everyone gets as telepathic species could use more flavor.
Which isn't my idea anyway, there is no necessity that everyone has access to every theme/trunk. Some themes/trunks can, or even should be gated by certain requirements (like having a species with certain abilities in your empire).
Secondly, balance wise: I just don't see there being enough psionic technologies, at least currently to justify creating a whole new theme.
Psionic weapons, psionic shields, psionic drives, mind control techs, population control techs, research/learning techs, and a huge area for psionic applications would be Influence, diplomatic, espionage and sabotage related stuff. I can imagine so much psionic/telepathy related things that we most likely can't even include everything, otherwise we'd get something I want to avoid, a theme that has almost everything.
right now as it stands each theme gets ships and weapons and ships and I really like it that way.
I don't, this is the exact thing I want to avoid: that there are things which are in every theme/trunk. No trunk should have everything, and nothing should be in every trunk, IMO that's one of the fundamental principles I hoped we could agree upon.

From a total of, let's say, 20 themes/trunks a player needs to select a subset which suits their choosen strategies. They can go "broad", that is, select more trunks but don't get deep into most of them, or "deep", that is, select less trunks but go deep into most of them. I envision it as a tradeoff between power and flexibility: less trunks but deeper into them means access to a less variety of techs, but more powerful ones, thus giving you more power but less flexibility. More trunks but not going so deep into them means less power, but more flexibility, because you have a broader variety of techs at your disposal.
I think you are talking about a sort of theme/functional hybrid system, which now that I think I grok the theme system I would say I prefer less than purely themed or purely functional system. I'd rather go one rout or another.
Why? IMO both a purely funtional or purely themed approach are boring. Neither gives you really that much flexibility and variety when choosing your strategies. Their main advantage is that they are a lot easier to design. But the one gives you basically what we have now, one tech tree you more or less have to research completely, or at least all the essential stuff (which makes up the major part of the tree), there are only a very few optimal/viable paths, and in the end everyone has everything and uses more or less the same optimal strategies.

The other one requires you to essentially set up several more or less independent tech trees, where each one can do one thing or the other better than the other trees, and that practically determines all your strategies. IMO still more interesting than a purely functional approach, but still not nearly as varied and interesting as what you call a "hybrid" approach can give.

That said, I don't perceive an approach where not all themes can cover all essentials as hybrid functional/themed anyway. For me, a "themed" approach only means that when designing a tech tree I don't focus on the function, and then create research paths for each function I want to provide, but group functions together by common themes. I start with the theme and ask: what functions would fit into that theme? And go forward from there.

Just because certain themes lend themselves to certain functions doesn't make the approach a hybrid one, but that's probably a matter of perception.
Personally I find a functional system more intuitive, but I can appreciate the aesthetics of the themed system. I'd say if we are going to have "themes" that focus on a single narrow area (like psionics) or are of the game (like a social) that we go to a functional system that will be more intuitive.
Well, the idea isn't to narrow the focus of a theme so much that it basically becomes a functional one. The theme needs to be broad enough to allow for incorporation of a sufficiently large set of functions. See my thoughts about a Psionic theme above.

A theme that only covers weapons would be an example of what should be avoided. A theme should at least cover 3, 4, or 5 functions, so to speak, and maybe 6-8 at most (I'm just throwing random numbers around). Functions being construction, industry/production, research, and influence related stuff, espionage/sabotage, ship hull lines of course, pop growth, detection and stealth, offensive systems (weapons), defensive systems (shields, armor, etc.), diplomacy/treaties, trade, supply, resource distribution mechanics (e.g. the stockpile thing), fleet logistics, planetary based offensive and defensive systems - do you really want to cover all these in every theme?

Advanced High Energy Physics (that could be the fancy name for what we now call the "Energy" theme) make sense to e.g. include energy wepons and shields, the energy ship hull line, but won't provide much when it comes to e.g. diplomacy. And it might include some very effective growth techs for species with energy metabolism (which I would use instead of "phototrophic", makes more sense IMO), maybe also some good ones for robotic species. Lithic and organic species might find more effective growth techs in the Lithic/Crystalline and Biotech/Organic/whatever we decide to call it in the end themes. Psionics on the other hand might not have any growth techs at all.

And so on. You get the idea.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5143
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#65 Post by Vezzra » Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:57 pm

labgnome wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:27 pm
Right now as it stands there are 5 tech themes/trunks, and I'd be hesitant to add more.
Why?
A low number is 1 or 2; 3 or 4 is most of the themes. I think that we have enough categories enough for a themed system.
"Themed", as in each theme provides more or less an entirely self-sufficient tech tree, with each of these separate tress having distinct strengths/advatanges and weaknesses/disadvantages, right?

For that kind of approach, yes, I guess we wouldn't want to have a lot more themes, as that would mean creating a dozen complete tech trees. Kind of overkill.

What I'm curious about is, how would you intend to organize these tech trees? Because if the research paths inside each theme get organized functionally, then you actually end up with several separate, but still functionally organized tech trees, where the "theme" determines the flavor, strength and weaknesses of each tree. If, however, you try to go "themed" within the separate trees, things get a bit crazy, as I don't know how that is supposed to work...?
I am also concerned about disrupting the nice arrangement that the fit into 6 or 9 tiers, with tech being easily slotted into early, mid and late game. We have a really nice organizational system going here and I don't want to see it thrown out the window.
Sounds like a good idea, 6 to 9 tiers for each trunk seem ok. I doubt we'll be able to provide enough content for each trunk to have 9 tiers, if we have 10-20 of them, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#66 Post by labgnome » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:53 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:46 pm
I don't, this is the exact thing I want to avoid: that there are things which are in every theme/trunk. No trunk should have everything, and nothing should be in every trunk, IMO that's one of the fundamental principles I hoped we could agree upon.
I don't think that as things stand we will easily come to an agreement on this. I'm not completely opposed, but I think you will need to better detail your own proposal for me to get what you are going for.
Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:46 pm
From a total of, let's say, 20 themes/trunks a player needs to select a subset which suits their choosen strategies. They can go "broad", that is, select more trunks but don't get deep into most of them, or "deep", that is, select less trunks but go deep into most of them. I envision it as a tradeoff between power and flexibility: less trunks but deeper into them means access to a less variety of techs, but more powerful ones, thus giving you more power but less flexibility. More trunks but not going so deep into them means less power, but more flexibility, because you have a broader variety of techs at your disposal.
20 Themes? I'm gonna give you a nice "whoa there buddy". I know one of the things that has been discussed and gotten a lot of agreement so far is that there should not be excessive scrolling, and this would be a whole lot of scrolling to find the techs in the themes you want. I like the 5 themes because they are nice and concise. A major consideration should be how easy it will be for the player to navigate this thing. Currently the proposed system would be very easy to navigate. Yours not so much.
Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:46 pm
The other one requires you to essentially set up several more or less independent tech trees, where each one can do one thing or the other better than the other trees, and that practically determines all your strategies. IMO still more interesting than a purely functional approach, but still not nearly as varied and interesting as what you call a "hybrid" approach can give.
Yes, you're kind of getting the idea. I like the concept of each theme as basically a different tech tree, each representing a mutually alien (to varying degree) approaches to technology. That is why I proposed that the primary means to get technology from other themes being tech trade or stealing through espionage. Basically each tech theme being like a theme for the empire. Mind you I am not proposing that you shouldn't be able to research into multiple themes, just that each theme should be viable on their own. I am not even proposing that each theme should be equally good in every area, in fact I'd like for each theme to have strengths and weaknesses. I think I could see a 2-theme strategy being optimal, a 3-themed strategy also viable, but costly, a 4 themed strategy costly, and an all themed strategy largely discouraged.
Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:46 pm
Advanced High Energy Physics (that could be the fancy name for what we now call the "Energy" theme) make sense to e.g. include energy wepons and shields, the energy ship hull line, but won't provide much when it comes to e.g. diplomacy. And it might include some very effective growth techs for species with energy metabolism (which I would use instead of "phototrophic", makes more sense IMO), maybe also some good ones for robotic species. Lithic and organic species might find more effective growth techs in the Lithic/Crystalline and Biotech/Organic/whatever we decide to call it in the end themes. Psionics on the other hand might not have any growth techs at all.
So this sounds interesting, and again like a very different proposal from what we currently have right now. I'm not completely opposed, but I honestly think that what we have been working towards right now

I am not completely opposed to your idea. Though, honestly what you are proposing is so different from what is currently being put together. I will say this feels too much like a departure from what I have already been sold on to jump on-board with any enthusiasm. I do not want to de-rail the work currently being done as there seems to be headway being made and I'd like to see this get worked and not drag out like the stockpile.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#67 Post by labgnome » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:30 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:57 pm
labgnome wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:27 pm
Right now as it stands there are 5 tech themes/trunks, and I'd be hesitant to add more.
Why?
A low number is 1 or 2; 3 or 4 is most of the themes. I think that we have enough categories enough for a themed system.
"Themed", as in each theme provides more or less an entirely self-sufficient tech tree, with each of these separate tress having distinct strengths/advatanges and weaknesses/disadvantages, right?

For that kind of approach, yes, I guess we wouldn't want to have a lot more themes, as that would mean creating a dozen complete tech trees. Kind of overkill.
You pretty-much answered your own question. I don't want a dozen or so tech trees, even if each one offered a completely different strategy, it would probably just induce choice paralysis.
Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:57 pm
What I'm curious about is, how would you intend to organize these tech trees? Because if the research paths inside each theme get organized functionally, then you actually end up with several separate, but still functionally organized tech trees, where the "theme" determines the flavor, strength and weaknesses of each tree. If, however, you try to go "themed" within the separate trees, things get a bit crazy, as I don't know how that is supposed to work...?
So there has been proposals to "branch" the trunks, but as it stands right now IIRC each theme has a single trunk. The "sub-themes" Ludlow be a bit more functionally oriented.

If you want a run-down of how the themes currently work, form what I can tell it's something like this (someone correct me if I'm wrong):
ThemeInspirationAestheticHullsWeaponsPoliticsOther
BiotechnologyZergLiving TechOrganicMonster PartsHiveBio-Modification
CrystallineKryptonian/Minbari"Crystal Spires and Togas"AsteroidLasersUtopianSubterranean
CyberneticBorgCyberpunkRoboticDrones/FightersCybernetic CollectiveRobots
EnergyProtosAlien/High-techEnergyBeam???Psionics
MechanicalTerranSteampunk/IndustrialMassiveRailgunsOppressiveMegastructures
Vezzra wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:57 pm
Sounds like a good idea, 6 to 9 tiers for each trunk seem ok. I doubt we'll be able to provide enough content for each trunk to have 9 tiers, if we have 10-20 of them, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Maybe closer to 10 tech themes if we are going to go with your idea 20 would make choice difficult even if some of the themes are otherwise "locked". Also we still haven't decided weather or not 6 or 9 tiers are preferable. I am still worried, even with a dozen or so themes that that it will be frustrating for players to scroll between all the themes to find the techs they want.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1915
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#68 Post by Oberlus » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:14 am

Didn't read it all yet (will do), and don't have the time to answer now all I've read, but I can say I can't figure out more than 6 themes right now (if we add psionics to the mix).

A trunk for the social stuff would be, as I understand it now, quite "functional", and I agree with labgnome that we should go either functional or themed, and that (now) I like it much more themed.
It makes so much sense that different themes have different approaches (if any) to different influence-related stuff.

Regarding not all themes having everything, I agree. But to a point.
All themes need weapons and any other combat-related stuff that players will find essential or the themes with no weapons will be less interesting. Or in other words, the combinations of themes will be something like one or two with weapons and maybe another without weapons.
We could split each themes into several functional/themed trunks that only get a subset of techs (e.g. for Energy, one for weapons and some production and research related techs; one for armours, most production and whatnot, etc.). This way we would get 15 or 20 independent themes with 2-3 techs per tier.
I have to mull over this idea, but a priori I don't like it, seems harder to decide where to put each tech, and dunno about gameplay or balancing.

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#69 Post by labgnome » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:52 am

Oberlus wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:14 am
Didn't read it all yet (will do), and don't have the time to answer now all I've read, but I can say I can't figure out more than 6 themes right now (if we add psionics to the mix).
I'm hesitant to add a psionics theme, as only telepathic species will benefit from it. However so long as we can keep the existing tier structure (either 6 or 9), I'm okay. Though we should probably decide on that sometime soon.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
em3
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:51 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#70 Post by em3 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:01 am

labgnome wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:52 am
I'm hesitant to add a psionics theme, as only telepathic species will benefit from it. However so long as we can keep the existing tier structure (either 6 or 9), I'm okay. Though we should probably decide on that sometime soon.
Actually, having the techs that are irrelevant to an empire without telepathic species separated into a trunk, sounds more ergonomic.
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1915
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#71 Post by Oberlus » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:10 am

labgnome wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:52 am
I'm hesitant to add a psionics theme, as only telepathic species will benefit from it.
I agree with em, and also, the Telepathic trait could be a bonus (less cost or time to research) instead of a hard constraint.

User avatar
em3
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:51 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#72 Post by em3 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:37 pm

That being said I was assuming all the time, that you were actually designing the very thing that Vezzra described and that the 4-5 trunk system was merely a prototype or initial draft.

I haven't played in a while, but the idea of 10-20 themes was what appealed to me, instead of "choose your technology tree from these couple of alternatives".
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

User avatar
labgnome
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#73 Post by labgnome » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:55 pm

em3 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:01 am
Actually, having the techs that are irrelevant to an empire without telepathic species separated into a trunk, sounds more ergonomic.
I know having branching themes was discussed, maybe psionics could be a branch off of energy?
Oberlus wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:10 am
I agree with em, and also, the Telepathic trait could be a bonus (less cost or time to research) instead of a hard constraint.
I was thinking more that the psionic technologies would be applied to telepathic species. Though a cost reduction is good.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5143
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#74 Post by Vezzra » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:07 pm

labgnome wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:55 pm
I know having branching themes was discussed, maybe psionics could be a branch off of energy?
Still forces you to pick/research energy to get to psionics, which in my book aren't really related things. This is something that needs to be avoided: to have to research through a bunch of stuff you're not interested in (at least, too much of it, we won't be able to avoid that completely all the time) just to get through something you want.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5143
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#75 Post by Vezzra » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:01 pm

I've opened a dedicated thread for the discussion about the fundamentals of a themed tech tree design here, so this thread doesn't get bogged down with that discussion and can focus on its actual topic. I've posted my further replies on this in the new thread, everyone who wants to follow up on that discussion please do so there too.

Post Reply