Ship weapons rework

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Oberlus
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Ship weapons rework

#1 Post by Oberlus » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:33 pm

I'm planning to put some weapons on every themed category.
Currently, we have not enough weapons types to populate every category with at least one viable weapon strategy.
I've got this up to now:

Physics: energy weapons: laser, plasma, death (particle) ray.
Mech: chemical mass drivers (traditional cannons), coilguns/railguns, and a thing of my "creation", a kind of particle accelerator for tiny bullets.
Biotech: organic weapons (spines, jaws, tentacles, acid...).
Cybernetics: WHAT CAN I PLACE HERE?!? Edit: apart from drones.

Suggestions and criticism of any kind very welcome.

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Krikkitone
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Re: Ship weapons rework

#2 Post by Krikkitone » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:47 pm

Fighters
Bombers for hitting planets
Possibly a "capture beam"... basically hacking the enemy ship if it does the killing blow

Biotech+Mech could also have Fighters/Bombers/Missiles
Last edited by Krikkitone on Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#3 Post by Oberlus » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:16 pm

Yes, fighters (drones in my mind). But they should have some kind of weapon capable of shooting down planets.
Hmm... Maybe atmospheric drones? New type of fighters that can target planets.

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#4 Post by The Silent One » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:49 pm

Some first ideas from me, to be fleshed out and added to:
Biotech:
fast fighter replenishment, superior ship regeneration, ability to ignore shields

"Void Barnacle"
Genetically engineered, the VB is an inexpensive fighter which can't attack; acts as decoy. Refinements increase hangar capacity.

"Self-Replicating Void Barnacle"
Like the void barnacle, but will split into multiple parts each combat rounds. Refinements: split in 3 or more parts.

"Void Hornet"
Genetically engineered, the VH is a powerful fighter with high damage. Combines well with barnacles which protext the hornets. Refinements increase hornet damage.

"Self-Replicating Void Hornet"
Like the void hornet, but will split. End-game weapon.

"Acidic Spores"
Shield-ignoring weapon targetting several enemies, dealing a moderate amount of hull damage. Best suited against small hulls. Refinements increase targetted enemies.

"Ultracarbon spine"
Extremely tough spine which ignores shields. Slow, but powerful attack suited best against large ships and planets. Refinements increase damage.

"Ultracarbon web"
Extremely tough web that immobilizes and disables a number of enemy fighters. Fighters will not be destroyed. Refinements increase number of targetted fighters.

"Death Spores"
Ignore planetary shields and reduce planetary defense and population quickly.
Physics/Energy:
All-rounders for energy weapons, which are weak against shields, but do high armor damage.

"Tractor Beam"
Disables a moderate number of enemy fighters. Fighters are not destroyed.
Mech:
They have strong guns that are very effective against shields and do solid armor damage as well.

"Asteroid accelerator"
Hurls asteroids at the enemy. Awesome. Slow, but high damage.
Cybernetics:
Sneaky tactics to hack and/or disable enemy ships.

"Shield virus"
Lowers enemy shield by (Ref*x).

"Cyberwar virus"
Disables (ref+1) enemy weapons.

"HAL virus"
Takes control of enemy ship for duration of (ref+1) combat rounds. Core slot.

"Corrosive Nano Bots"
Do high structure damage. Can only operate if shields are down.

"EMP Pulse"
Disables decent amount of enemy fighters.

"Automated combat drones"
Capable anti-fighter unit with (ref+1) shots.
If I provided any images, code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0.

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#5 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:54 am

Commenting on the state of what is not possible currently
The Silent One wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:49 pm
Biotech:
...ability to ignore shields
Only fighters ignore shields. Workaround: could script effects which lower enemy shield values outside of combat.
The Silent One wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:49 pm
"Self-Replicating Void Barnacle"
Like the void barnacle, but will split into multiple parts each combat rounds. Refinements: split in 3 or more parts.
That would need something like in-combat effects. Workaround: Increase launch bay capability (and hangar capacity) dynamically in combat.
The Silent One wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:49 pm
"Acidic Spores"
Shield-ignoring weapon targetting several enemies, dealing a moderate amount of hull damage. Best suited against small hulls. Refinements increase targetted enemies.
No shield-piercing weapons. No multishot fighters. Workaround: something like interceptors
The Silent One wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:49 pm
"Ultracarbon web"
Extremely tough web that immobilizes and disables a number of enemy fighters. Fighters will not be destroyed. Refinements increase number of targetted fighters.
No immobilization. Workaround: empty combatTargets for fighters in presence of web
The Silent One wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:49 pm

Physics/Energy:

All-rounders for energy weapons, which are weak against shields, but do high armor damage.
Workaround: multishot weapons (e.g. "Pulsed Lasers")
The Silent One wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:49 pm

Mech:

"Asteroid accelerator"
Hurls asteroids at the enemy. Awesome. Slow, but high damage.
No notion of slow weapons. combatTargets only ships with low speed.
The Silent One wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:49 pm

Cybernetics:

Sneaky tactics to hack and/or disable enemy ships.

"HAL virus"
Takes control of enemy ship for duration of (ref+1) combat rounds. Core slot.
Would probably need combat effects and some way to store old owner. Veeery unlikely to happen.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#6 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:56 am

Oberlus wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:16 pm
Yes, fighters (drones in my mind). But they should have some kind of weapon capable of shooting down planets.
Hmm... Maybe atmospheric drones? New type of fighters that can target planets.
Thats possible currently. There is only the imbalance that currently planets do cannot shoot down fighters. So this would increase the stealth bomber issue. As a workaround the ship part could decrease the ships stealth by 20 or 40.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#7 Post by The Silent One » Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:32 am

Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:54 am
Commenting on the state of what is not possible currently
Thanks for the reality check :wink: ; I am of course very much aware that some of this is not doable with the current combat mechanics. What I intend to demonstrate is how the differently themed categories might offer a truly unique game-play experience. Currently, we can differentiate weapon tech by different damage, fire rate for beam weapons, damage and number for fighters; different RP and research time cost; different PP and production time cost for the researched parts. Bombs don't work against planet defense as of yet (but has been suggested). This offers somewhat limited options to have different weapons for each categories. Mostly, some branches may only offer fighters or beam weapons. ... it may be worthwhile to extend our combat mechanics at some point.
If I provided any images, code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0.

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#8 Post by em3 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:30 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:54 am
The Silent One wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:49 pm

Mech:

"Asteroid accelerator"
Hurls asteroids at the enemy. Awesome. Slow, but high damage.
No notion of slow weapons. combatTargets only ships with low speed.
If I recall correctly, there were some plans for missles at one point. There should be missles, torpedoes and other slow, long range weapons added at some point.

They would fit great into mechanical branch (with some "ion torpedoes" in energy branch and "corrosive spores" in bio branch and locking-on or disrupting missiles in cyber branch).

EDIT: Also, mech branch (and bio branch) could do with some close combat weapons (battering rams, bumpers, tentacles).

EDIT2: I'm wondering, how much the current fighters implementation could be re-purposed for projectile weapons? Hangar being replaced with missile storage, launch bays with tube launchers etc. The only difference would be that missiles should be destroyed when they hit the enemy (or if they survive to the end of battle without hitting anyone - unless some high level missile recovery technology becomes available). I'm not suggesting to make missiles a kind of fighet. More like.. re-using c++ code.
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#9 Post by Oberlus » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:24 pm

em3 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:30 pm
If I recall correctly, there were some plans for missiles at one point. There should be missiles, torpedoes and other slow, long range weapons added at some point.

They would fit great into mechanical branch (with some "ion torpedoes" in energy branch and "corrosive spores" in bio branch and locking-on or disrupting missiles in cyber branch).

EDIT: Also, mech branch (and bio branch) could do with some close combat weapons (battering rams, bumpers, tentacles).

EDIT2: I'm wondering, how much the current fighters implementation could be re-purposed for projectile weapons? Hangar being replaced with missile storage, launch bays with tube launchers etc. The only difference would be that missiles should be destroyed when they hit the enemy (or if they survive to the end of battle without hitting anyone - unless some high level missile recovery technology becomes available). I'm not suggesting to make missiles a kind of fighet. More like.. re-using c++ code.
Yes!

I do look forward to have missiles and fighters/drones as two long range weapons with slightly different purposes. Although a proper reformulation of fighters could also cover all the roles that missiles could have (e.g. a bomber type that is really destructive, as would be the torpedo).
And also I'd like to have close range (melee) weapons like the ones you mention, specially for jaws and tentacles, but those would require more C++ tinkering, because it makes sooo much sense that melee weapons do lock to its target (round after round you keep chewing the same ship).

The problem for me is that for this to make real sense we need actual ranges, and that require to consider distances, movement and speed. Which would be really interesting (e.g. making smaller ships faster than bigger ships would give them a new niche for late game instead of the current "once-you-get-the-huge-hulls-you-can-forget-about-the-rest" boring tactics.

I'm trying to figure out a simple way to allow for weapon ranges and ship speeds that makes sense without using a board. Maybe this week...

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#10 Post by em3 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:59 pm

An intermediate step would be to introduce weapons that are, currently, mechanically indistinguishable from the direct fire weapons we already have, but to assume they will be modified into more interesting weapon types once the backend can handle their awesomeness.
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#11 Post by Vezzra » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:14 pm

em3 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:30 pm
I'm wondering, how much the current fighters implementation could be re-purposed for projectile weapons? Hangar being replaced with missile storage, launch bays with tube launchers etc. The only difference would be that missiles should be destroyed when they hit the enemy (or if they survive to the end of battle without hitting anyone - unless some high level missile recovery technology becomes available). I'm not suggesting to make missiles a kind of fighet. More like.. re-using c++ code.
While not familiar with the relevant code parts, I assume that this shouldn't be too hard to do. IIRC some rudimentary/basic code for missiles already is/has been in place (missiles definitely had been planned at some point in the past).

Personally I also would like to see missiles added to the game. The main difference to fighters would be that they get destroyed when they hit their target.

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#12 Post by Vezzra » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:20 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:24 pm
The problem for me is that for this to make real sense we need actual ranges, and that require to consider distances, movement and speed. Which would be really interesting (e.g. making smaller ships faster than bigger ships would give them a new niche for late game instead of the current "once-you-get-the-huge-hulls-you-can-forget-about-the-rest" boring tactics.

I'm trying to figure out a simple way to allow for weapon ranges and ship speeds that makes sense without using a board. Maybe this week...
Take a look at the combat models of the Paradox games Crusader Kings II, Europa Universalis IV and Stellaris (although the latter is probably the hardest to pull of well). The former two would have to be translated into something that works for space battles, but the basic concepts sound interesting and promising IMO (as long as you throw any notion of "realism" over board, that is ;)).

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#13 Post by Krikkitone » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:57 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:24 pm
em3 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:30 pm
If I recall correctly, there were some plans for missiles at one point. There should be missiles, torpedoes and other slow, long range weapons added at some point.

They would fit great into mechanical branch (with some "ion torpedoes" in energy branch and "corrosive spores" in bio branch and locking-on or disrupting missiles in cyber branch).

EDIT: Also, mech branch (and bio branch) could do with some close combat weapons (battering rams, bumpers, tentacles).

EDIT2: I'm wondering, how much the current fighters implementation could be re-purposed for projectile weapons? Hangar being replaced with missile storage, launch bays with tube launchers etc. The only difference would be that missiles should be destroyed when they hit the enemy (or if they survive to the end of battle without hitting anyone - unless some high level missile recovery technology becomes available). I'm not suggesting to make missiles a kind of fighet. More like.. re-using c++ code.
Yes!

I do look forward to have missiles and fighters/drones as two long range weapons with slightly different purposes. Although a proper reformulation of fighters could also cover all the roles that missiles could have (e.g. a bomber type that is really destructive, as would be the torpedo).
And also I'd like to have close range (melee) weapons like the ones you mention, specially for jaws and tentacles, but those would require more C++ tinkering, because it makes sooo much sense that melee weapons do lock to its target (round after round you keep chewing the same ship).

The problem for me is that for this to make real sense we need actual ranges, and that require to consider distances, movement and speed. Which would be really interesting (e.g. making smaller ships faster than bigger ships would give them a new niche for late game instead of the current "once-you-get-the-huge-hulls-you-can-forget-about-the-rest" boring tactics.

I'm trying to figure out a simple way to allow for weapon ranges and ship speeds that makes sense without using a board. Maybe this week...
Range isn't needed really, fighters/missiles are just weapons you can intercept with other weapons

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#14 Post by Vezzra » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:15 pm

Krikkitone wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:57 pm
Range isn't needed really, fighters/missiles are just weapons you can intercept with other weapons
Maybe that would be sufficient if you decide to just stick to fighters/missiles and "direct fire" weapons, but once you also want to introduce "melee" kind of weapons, you'll finally need to distinguish between point blank, short and long range, which requires at least a very basic/simple model for range.

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Re: Ship weapons rework

#15 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:48 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:15 pm
Krikkitone wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:57 pm
Range isn't needed really, fighters/missiles are just weapons you can intercept with other weapons
Maybe that would be sufficient if you decide to just stick to fighters/missiles and "direct fire" weapons, but once you also want to introduce "melee" kind of weapons, you'll finally need to distinguish between point blank, short and long range, which requires at least a very basic/simple model for range.
Not necessarily. Missiles are easy.

Let missiles fly for a combat turn before they hit a target (so there is time to shoot them down before they do damage).

Short range Oberlus imagined mostly as "clinging to an enemy". That would be something like sticky target grouping (so persistent enemy over multiple combat turns). Having to remember single enemy is probably way simpler than a tracking and deciding distances between many objects which could belong to more than two empires.

One very simple range system could be turn based "system-wide-shrinking-distances" (so not combattant-specific). E.g. first combat turn long range, second combat turn long and medium range, starting from third turn long, medium and short range.
One way to implement that: add a notion of combat turn to combatTarget conditions. Maybe planets should not be involved at all in first combat turn. Melee weapons would not do any damage for the first two turns, but then big damage (so a melee weapon on mass driver level could do e.g. 15 damage)
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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