Influence Discussion

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Oberlus
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Re: Influence Discussion

#16 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:02 pmI think it should be targeted. You should have to put work into each planet you get. Influence as a mechanic should keep your empire from snowballing, and I could see your empire snowballing really fast in a galaxy with a high concentration of natives.

Also, alternately, given that it's been suggested that having more species in your empire should cost more influence I don't think we want players to shoot themselves in the foot just because they have one species with good traits or an environmental preference they want, by making them take whatever other species are in range.
You're so right. The targetted project must be there.

Anyway, the empire-wide version should also be possible, but be under player's control. It should not be a constant, unstoppable effect, but an influence project that you can halt or cancel whenever you want, so no need to shoot one's foot. And since acquisition of more colonies and species would reduce the spare influence of the empire, it would not snowball, in fact it would be self-regulatory: once it lacks influence points the propaganda project can't keep advancing and no more foreign colonies would be assimilated.

the Moderate Tech Natives and High Tech Natives specials should work the opposite for peaceful acquisition
I think I like this. So the special makes harder the military conquest but easier the influential conquest.

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Re: Influence Discussion

#17 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:21 pm The influence projects I can think of:
  • Investigation/Recognisance (espionage): report of planet facilities, armies and activities (beyond current detection capacities), and grants the vision from that planet as long as the project is online.
  • Steal technologies (espionage): gets PP for a given tech you are researching that is owned by the enemy.
  • Counter-espionage (espionage): makes harder to finish or even cancel enemy espionage/sabotage projects.
  • Building destruction (sabotage).
  • Ship/fleet destruction (sabotage).
  • Assassination (sabotage): lowers influence production on that planet by killing influential figures.
  • Terrorism (sabotage): lowers happiness, cheap and effective but can't be used to conquer the planet (it does not raise public opinion on you, and if countered it will greatly decrease that public opinion).
  • Mass-destruction weapons (sabotage): lowers happiness and kills population without the need of orbital domination (can eradicate and revert the colony to outpost if intense enough), but it is harder to achieve than terrorism.
  • Incite revolt (propaganda): lowers happiness, chances to destroy buildings, armies and/or population depending on how much the happiness approaches zero (intensity of the revolt) and the presence of order forces in the planet. If the owner can't counteract the enemy influence and the happiness reaches zero and stays there for long enough, chances for the planet to become independent increases. If that happens, it becomes a "native" planet.
  • Imperial marketing (propaganda): slowest influence project that lowers the affiliation of the planet to its empire and substitutes it for affiliation to the influencing empire. "Affiliation" is a concept here, I don't know how the effect of this project could be implemented, but I assume the happiness meter alone can't do this. This could be a general project that works both inside and outside the empire, i.e. at the same time getting new planets for you and stopping others from influencing your planets.
  • Incite desertion (propaganda): targets a fleet/ship and, if it succeeds, changes affiliation of that fleet.
I am liking your three categories. Maybe a combination of those categories and internal vs. external for a total of six kinds of influence projects.

I have some thoughts. Firstly, I'd re-name the sabotage category to "Terror". I'd them split counter-espionage into countering espionage and countering terror. On the subject of assassinations I know the possibility of actually adding leaders to Free Orion has been mentioned in topics before. It's something I would be interested in. Maybe a simple system like in Pax Imperia. However I think that we should get influence and governments down first, so I'd wait until we are at a point to seriously consider adding actual leaders to the game until adding in anything that we would call assassination.

Here's a possible table of influence projects under this proposed scheme.
ProjectDirectionTypeTarget
InvestigationExternalEspionagePlanet
ReconnaissanceExternalEspionageEmpire/Fleet
Steal TechnologyExternalEspionageEmpire
Supply RebellsExternalEspionagePlanet
ProbeInternalEspionagePlanet
Counter EspionageInternalEspionageEmpire
Building DestructionExternalTerrorBuilding
Fleet DestructionExternalTerrorFleet
(Metabolism) Mass-DestructionExternalTerrorPlanet
Sabotage ResearchExternalTerrorPlanet
Sabotage ProductionExternalTerrorPlanet
Sabotage InfluenceExternalTerrorPlanet
Suppress RebellionInternalTerrorPlanet
InquisitionInternalTerrorEmpire
Counter TerrorismInternalTerrorEmpire
Incite RevoltExternalPropagandaPlanet
Support RebellionExternalPropagandaEmpire
Oppose ResearchExternalPropagandaEmpire
Oppose ProductionExternalPropagandaEmpire
Oppose InfluenceExternalPropagandaEmpire
Diplomatic MissionExternalPropagandaPlanet (Native)
Technological UpliftExternalPropagandaPlanet (Native)
Foreign EmbassyExternalPropagandaEmpire
Covert MarketingExternalPropagandaEmpire (War)
Promotional MarketingExternalPropagandaEmpire (Peace)
Subversive MarketingExternalPropagandaEmpire (Allied)
Cultural MarketingExternalPropagandaSpecies (Native)
Promote (Species) ColonizationInternalPropagandaPlanet (Outpost)
Support (Species) ValuesInternalPropagandaSpecies
Conserve (Metabolism) EnvironmentInternalPropagandaMetabolism (multiple Species)
Conserve (Planet Class) EcologyInternalPropagandaPlanet Class (multiple Planets)
Cultural PromotionInternalPropagandaEmpire
Counter PropagandaInternalPropagandaEmpire
So the idea I have is that Reconnaissance will reveal the position on the empire's fleets. Probe will reveal any active influence projects effecting a planet, while Inquisition will reveal it across the empire at the cost of happiness. The sabotage and opposition projects will both effect research, production and influence, but the sabotage projects will have a stronger effect and be targeted at a specific planet, while the oppose projects will have a weaker effect and target a whole empire. The idea behind the oppose projects is that you create a massive negative PR campaign about the empire's activities in the area subverting their public support. I also split the Imperial Marketing into weather or not it targets an enemy, neutral or allied empire, to avoid accidentally disrupting an alliance if you are discovered. Foreign Embassy would require some kind of opinion mechanic. Cultural Marketing would work like Diplomatic Mission but target all planets in range of a given species. Support Values would apply a happiness bonus to all planets colonized by a particular species in your empire. Conserve Environment would work like Support Values, have a lower happiness boost, but effect all species of a given metabolism. Conserve Ecology would apply a happiness boost based on planet class, but at a malus to research or production.
Oberlus wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:21 pmBTW, diplomatic mission seems like something to stablish alliances between governments (empires), more than changing allegiances of a population. But dunno what could be a better name.
I'd go for Foreign Embassies as a name.
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Re: Influence Discussion

#18 Post by Krikkitone »

I think Terror should include things like Supporting Rebels/Opposing research... basically anything that hurts the enemy and you try to deny (unlike reconnaissance/stealing techs which helps you without hurting them or a Diplomatic type Propaganda that encourages other empire's to become your friends to make their population happy.)


I would tend to agree that Native Worlds should be individually targeted. They are unique, and you don't just want "all native worlds"

External targets should probably be Empires/Species should be broadly targeted... with some exceptions
"Weaken Defenses" ie prepare for an invasion makes sense as the Invasion is targeted\
"Investigation" as a cheaper planet version of "Reconnaissance" makes sense.


Also, a few of those seem like they would make more sense as policies (ie conserve environment/Metabolism, promote species)

I think as Influence starts to come out we will need to look at Diplomacy+"opinion"

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11177&p=94492&hilit ... acy#p94492

Main thoughts...
1. "in game diplomacy" should consist of making other empires do what you want by making their population more/less happy when they do what you want. (so that it affects AIs and Humans equally)
This way you can "spend" ingame resources on diplomacy and have it matter.

2. To provide a reason for Diplomacy allow a level of Diplomatic Agreement that is basically Shared Victory (if every empire left has Shared Victory, then they all win a "Sole Survivor" Victory)
This way you can have alliances that last all game and don't need to be destroyed to win

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Re: Influence Discussion

#19 Post by labgnome »

Krikkitone wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:36 pm I think Terror should include things like Supporting Rebels/Opposing research... basically anything that hurts the enemy and you try to deny (unlike reconnaissance/stealing techs which helps you without hurting them or a Diplomatic type Propaganda that encourages other empire's to become your friends to make their population happy.)
I can see that. Maybe also call it "Disrupt" rather than "Oppose".
ProjectDirectionTypeTarget
InvestigationExternalEspionagePlanet
InfiltrationExternalEspionageEmpire/Planets
ReconnaissanceExternalEspionageEmpire/Fleet
Covert Research OpsExternalEspionageEmpire
Covert Production OpsExternalEspionageEmpire
Covert Influence OpsExternalEspionageEmpire
Steal TechnologyExternalEspionageEmpire
ProbeInternalEspionagePlanet
Top Secret ColonyInternalEspionagePlanet
Counter EspionageInternalEspionageEmpire
Building DestructionExternalTerrorBuilding
Fleet DestructionExternalTerrorFleet
(Metabolism) Mass-DestructionExternalTerrorPlanet
Sabotage ResearchExternalTerrorPlanet
Sabotage ProductionExternalTerrorPlanet
Sabotage InfluenceExternalTerrorPlanet
Disrupt ResearchExternalTerrorEmpire
Disrupt ProductionExternalTerrorEmpire
Disrupt InfluenceExternalTerrorEmpire
Supply RebellsExternalTerrorPlanet
Support RebellionExternalTerrorEmpire
Suppress RebellionInternalTerrorPlanet
InquisitionInternalTerrorEmpire
Counter TerrorismInternalTerrorEmpire
Incite RevoltExternalPropagandaPlanet
Primitive Diplomatic MissionExternalPropagandaPlanet (Native)
Diplomatic MissionExternalPropagandaPlanet (Moderate Tech Native)
Advanced Diplomatic MissionExternalPropagandaPlanet (High Tech Native)
Moderate Technological UpliftExternalPropagandaPlanet (Native)
Advanced Technological UpliftExternalPropagandaPlanet (Moderate Tech Native)
Foreign EmbassyExternalPropagandaEmpire
Covert MarketingExternalPropagandaEmpire (War)
Promotional MarketingExternalPropagandaEmpire (Peace)
Subversive MarketingExternalPropagandaEmpire (Allied)
Cultural MarketingExternalPropagandaSpecies (Native)
Promote (Species) ColonizationInternalPropagandaPlanet (Outpost)
Support (Species) ValuesInternalPropagandaSpecies
Conserve (Metabolism) EnvironmentInternalPropagandaMetabolism (multiple Species)
Conserve (Planet Class) EcologyInternalPropagandaPlanet Class (multiple Planets)
Cultural PromotionInternalPropagandaEmpire
Counter PropagandaInternalPropagandaEmpire
I think that cleans it up a bit. However espionage is now a even more sparse. I've added some new projects to the Espionage section. Infiltration will reveal all owned planets. The Covert Ops will reveal the current (but not enqueued) research, production and influence projects respectively. The Top Secret Colony will hide a colony from Infiltration and will also apply stealth to all buildings on the planet.

Edit: I also separated Diplomatic Mission into Primitive, regular and Advanced and the Technological Uplift into Moderate and Advanced.
Last edited by labgnome on Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Influence Discussion

#20 Post by labgnome »

On the subject of the Mass-Destruction influence project:

I think that this should replace the bio-terror focus. Also I would propose that like the bombardment weapons we get separate terror buildings that unlock the mass-destruction influence project. These buildings can only be built on planets with the resonant moon special or that have the Top Secret Colony influence project. If either of these are removed or otherwise made inactive, the building becomes inoperative. If you don't have an operative buildings of the appropriate type then the project is disabled. The projects will have their cost determined the distance in jumps of the nearest terror facility. Each project will will reduce the planet's population by 0.5 per turn, until there are none left, or a Counter Terrorism project is initiated. This is making me think that maybe the counter-projects might need to target planets.
  • Biological-Terror Projector: allows mass-destruction of organic species.
  • Geological-Terror Projector: allows mass-destruction of lithic species.
  • Cybernetic-Terror Projector: allows mass-destruction of robotic species.
  • Meteorological-Terror Projector: allows mass-destruction of phototrophic species.
  • Harmonic-Terror Projector: allows mass-destruction of self-sustaining species.
  • Jovian-Terror Projector: allows mass-destruction of gaseous species.
  • Ecological-Terror Complex: allows mass destruction of any metabolism type.
I would suggest that the specialized terror projectors and the generalized terror complex be in separate themes/trunks.
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Re: Influence Discussion

#21 Post by Oberlus »

For now, I would sketch the different influence projects/policies in general terms, independent of themes. Later on, when we have a definitive set of themes, we could make different versions of the same project for different themes, and this thread would be the guide for all that.

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Re: Influence Discussion

#22 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:29 am For now, I would sketch the different influence projects/policies in general terms, independent of themes. Later on, when we have a definitive set of themes, we could make different versions of the same project for different themes, and this thread would be the guide for all that.
Heard that. Any thoughts of your own?
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Re: Influence Discussion

#23 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:36 amAny thoughts of your own?
Well, nothing interesting from me. I'm squeezing my brains out with the micro-themes and have few free neurons for now.
But I can say a few things.
First, that I like your ideas (covert ops, hidden colony, the different versions of the many projects depending on its target...).

I think it is time to shape up the long waited diplomatic and espionage mechanics. Not to force its implementation, just to have a design pad and hopefully to bring in some momentum to potential programmers that could implement it.
For this we need to be systematic:
  • List all possible effects (seems that most of this is already done, but more ideas could come in).
  • Along with an explanation of the actual mechanics, not only the general effect but also how it would be supported by current game mechanics, some ideas for the formulas that could be necessary, etc. (that's been just sketched and only for a few cases).
  • Giving several alternative mechanics for its consideration, like requiring or not a building or an upkeep, or making it policy or project, etc. (some will be good, some will be discarded after analysis due to balance, micromanagement or whatever).
And lastly, that I should not trust the self-corrector for words I don't really know (so recognisance is something about courts and bails and nothing to do with reconnaissance :roll: ).


PS: Do you mind if we change this thread's tittle to something like "Influence projects discussion" and we open a new thread for "Influence mechanics discussion" focused on how the influence meter works? (how is influence produced and consumed, how to balance it with respect the other meters and the exponential growth of the empires...)

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Re: Influence Discussion

#24 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:29 pmI think it is time to shape up the long waited diplomatic and espionage mechanics. Not to force its implementation, just to have a design pad and hopefully to bring in some momentum to potential programmers that could implement it.
For this we need to be systematic:
  • List all possible effects (seems that most of this is already done, but more ideas could come in).
  • Along with an explanation of the actual mechanics, not only the general effect but also how it would be supported by current game mechanics, some ideas for the formulas that could be necessary, etc. (that's been just sketched and only for a few cases).
  • Giving several alternative mechanics for its consideration, like requiring or not a building or an upkeep, or making it policy or project, etc. (some will be good, some will be discarded after analysis due to balance, micromanagement or whatever).
I am thinking that espionage will at least in the beginning be handled through influence projects. Diplomacy will probably be its own screen, but things like treaties would cost influence to maintain. I would say that governments and policies should probably be fleshed out before diplomacy.

I definitely think we are in a good as far as listing effects for some kind of starting place.

I have been hesitant to put out things like possible numbers. I don't know what kinds of things have already been done in gtihub, and don't want to upend what might already be done. I might throw out a general idea.

A couple have been suggested as policies instead of influence projects. I've also suggested that mass destruction require buildings. I might have a few more that I will suggest tying to buildings. And some I will suggest being tied to policies.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:29 pmPS: Do you mind if we change this thread's tittle to something like "Influence projects discussion" and we open a new thread for "Influence mechanics discussion" focused on how the influence meter works? (how is influence produced and consumed, how to balance it with respect the other meters and the exponential growth of the empires...)
I don't mind if you change the title. I don't have any particular attachment to it.
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Re: Influence Discussion

#25 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:05 pmI am thinking that espionage will at least in the beginning be handled through influence projects.
I don't know if we have influence projects (the mechanics) implemented, but I know policy cards are, and you can try it.
But I personally don't care about "beginning" or "later", I wish to have the design pad all at once, so that everything can be considered in the new tech tree for balance. So my idea is to sketch every possible influence effect and decide for them how they should be implemented (not how can they be implemented for now).
I would say that governments and policies should probably be fleshed out before diplomacy.
Yeah, we definitively has to think about Government too. The snap I linked above has also some advances towards government, it has government seat IIRC. And there is more, I'm sure Ophiuchus and Geoff have work done. There are threads on the subject. We shall check them first, and talk about that in them or create a new one.
A couple have been suggested as policies instead of influence projects. I've also suggested that mass destruction require buildings. I might have a few more that I will suggest tying to buildings. And some I will suggest being tied to policies.
Yes, this sort of things, fully detailed for each effect: if it will be a project, a policy or a focus, if it will require a building, influence upkeep, and the full description of the effect, but not with numbers, we can't do that yet.

I guess we can make here all the discussion regarding influence.

Policy cards (what I mean when I say "policies") are meant for mutually exclusive effects, usually with a bonus and a malus, and can require buildings or influence upkeeps. Different kind of policy cards require different government slots, and there will be more options than available slots of each type (obviously). They are very versatile regarding balance, do not imply any kind of micromanagement (unless we fail in the design to allow for some benefit from periodic switching of policy cards), and are very good to diversify strategies and bring fun to the game thanks to giving you mutually exclusive choices.

Influence projects, similar to construction or research projects, will have a queue and require influence investment to complete, with a minimum number of turns. Two types, those that apply its effect once the project is completed (name?, like buildings and ships), and those that have an effect that repeats every turn (continuous, like the stockpiling project). Influence projects will be good for non-exclusive effects, probably without any malus, and maybe they can allow for opposing effects (e.g. your enemy starts a mass-destruction project in your colony, you start there a counter-espionage project and the IPs you invest there counters the ones invested by your enemy, by increasing its cost or depleting its progress, things like that).

Planetary focus could be good for effects with range (centred in the planet with the focus) or that give some local boost (e.g. bonus to defence against espionage, terror and/or propaganda, if this makes sense).

Influence points will be produced by planets (and buildings; in the prototype, when I tried it a few months ago, the only source was a capital building that produced 1 per turn), not sure if population should or should not be considered, depends on if that can be controlled to not cause exponential growth. And will be consumed by policies, projects and the upkeep of planets and ships. Young colonies and those that have sustained damage will consume more influence than what they produce, and well developed colonies will have surplus. The more colonies and species, the higher the upkeeps will be, so that as the empire grows the available IPs decreases. Unlocking techs, applying policies and waiting for your younger colonies to develop will be the ways to improve your influence production and keep expanding or building more ships, and if we also consider population for influence production, setting planets to influence focus. But on the long run the available IPs per developed colony shall keep decreasing asymptotically with the number of colonies (or the population). No formulas decided for this yet, AFAIK.
Oh, and government and diplomatics will also affect influence production or consumption (diplomatic projects, governments with bonus or malus to influence...), and also the species, and the relations among them and with the government within the empire. Yes, a lot to think about, and each piece must fit well in the puzzle.

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Re: Influence Discussion

#26 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:49 pmI don't know if we have influence projects (the mechanics) implemented, but I know policy cards are, and you can try it.
But I personally don't care about "beginning" or "later", I wish to have the design pad all at once, so that everything can be considered in the new tech tree for balance. So my idea is to sketch every possible influence effect and decide for them how they should be implemented (not how can they be implemented for now).
So there has been talk about possibly using "agents" at some point but that seems to be a maybe. Right now there is nothing definite to replace the current idea. Even then it would probably still be done through influence projects.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:49 pmYeah, we definitively has to think about Government too. The snap I linked above has also some advances towards government, it has government seat IIRC. And there is more, I'm sure Ophiuchus and Geoff have work done. There are threads on the subject. We shall check them first, and talk about that in them or create a new one.
I have checked them out and right now there really sin't any discussion on exactly how governments should work. Aside from suggestions I made in the Policy Card jumble there hasn't been any discussion here about what exactly governments should look like.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:49 pmYes, this sort of things, fully detailed for each effect: if it will be a project, a policy or a focus, if it will require a building, influence upkeep, and the full description of the effect, but not with numbers, we can't do that yet.
Everything on the lists I made are supposed to be influence projects. Not anything else.

I am thinking though that some kind of "Conservation" policy might be necessary for Conserve Environment and Conserve Ecology and that a "Communications Array" building might be necessary for the Marketing projects. Similarly I have been thinking the regular and Primitive Diplomatic missions, as well as the Technological Uplifts might require special technologies or policies to use.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:49 pmPolicy cards (what I mean when I say "policies") are meant for mutually exclusive effects, usually with a bonus and a malus, and can require buildings or influence upkeeps. Different kind of policy cards require different government slots, and there will be more options than available slots of each type (obviously). They are very versatile regarding balance, do not imply any kind of micromanagement (unless we fail in the design to allow for some benefit from periodic switching of policy cards), and are very good to diversify strategies and bring fun to the game thanks to giving you mutually exclusive choices.
I will say that I don't know that policies need to come with a malus. I think just having a bonus would be fine.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:49 pmInfluence projects, similar to construction or research projects, will have a queue and require influence investment to complete, with a minimum number of turns. Two types, those that apply its effect once the project is completed (name?, like buildings and ships), and those that have an effect that repeats every turn (continuous, like the stockpiling project). Influence projects will be good for non-exclusive effects, probably without any malus, and maybe they can allow for opposing effects (e.g. your enemy starts a mass-destruction project in your colony, you start there a counter-espionage project and the IPs you invest there counters the ones invested by your enemy, by increasing its cost or depleting its progress, things like that).
Mass-destruction would be countered by Counter-Terrorism but you have the right idea. My thought is that the projects would apply a tag or effect to the target and the counter-project would remove it.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:49 pmInfluence points will be produced by planets (and buildings; in the prototype, when I tried it a few months ago, the only source was a capital building that produced 1 per turn), not sure if population should or should not be considered, depends on if that can be controlled to not cause exponential growth. And will be consumed by policies, projects and the upkeep of planets and ships. Young colonies and those that have sustained damage will consume more influence than what they produce, and well developed colonies will have surplus. The more colonies and species, the higher the upkeeps will be, so that as the empire grows the available IPs decreases. Unlocking techs, applying policies and waiting for your younger colonies to develop will be the ways to improve your influence production and keep expanding or building more ships, and if we also consider population for influence production, setting planets to influence focus. But on the long run the available IPs per developed colony shall keep decreasing asymptotically with the number of colonies (or the population). No formulas decided for this yet, AFAIK.
Oh, and government and diplomatics will also affect influence production or consumption (diplomatic projects, governments with bonus or malus to influence...), and also the species, and the relations among them and with the government within the empire. Yes, a lot to think about, and each piece must fit well in the puzzle.
I think the general idea is that producing influence will work like research and production through an influence focus. The idea also seems to be that this will be a primary focus also similar to research and production.
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Re: Influence Discussion

#27 Post by Krikkitone »

Some broad Influence mechanics ideas

Primarily Generated: focused planets-population influence, some buildings


Consumption:

Maintenance... to limit snowballing maintenance costs should be the square of the thing being maintained.

Maintenance for planets=X*(# of planets^2)+Y*(#of planets)...pay this or planets become more and more unhappy and eventually rebel...decreasing your number of planets and solving your problem
[Policys & techs can affect X and Y...as well as obviously boosting your influence production per planet]

Maintenance for fleets=same formula, different X and Y... possibly just total ship slots or some other number....pay this or your fleets become more and more unhappy and eventually they desert in the middle of battle, or even join the other side.

Policies
Influence should be needed to swap policy cards, and to swap "governments" with card slots to more advanced/different types
Possibly more influence is needed the first time you "activate" a card, if you activate one you used before it might cost less.

Projects
Internal-things to boost/protect your empire

Espionage-things to attack other empires/get a benefit from them against their will

Diplomacy-things to convince another empire to give you a benefit (*see proposal below)
Diplomacy projects: with other Empires
Foreign Missions-target Empire- (Increases Diplomatic Strength)
Warbroker/Peacebroker-targets 2 Other Empires -causes happiness/unhappiness based on their War/peace status
Independence-remove Warbroker/Peacebroker Projects applied to you...if the other party is investing in this as well, then it will activate early
Research Agreements-target Empire-get a fraction of their Research
Trade Agreements-target Empire-get a bonus to Influence+Industry generation
Supply Agreements-target Empire-use that empires Supply routes as yours
Shared Win -target Empire-Can win together with this empire




Diplomacy Proposal
*Here is what I see as things diplomacy should do in the game

1. Win-win situations (I get a benefit that doesn't hurt you... but unlike espionage you know about it..and can get the same benefit from me)** including reaching a "Shared Win"
2. Convincing another empire to do nice things for me and bad things to my enemies

For a diplomacy model what I would have

Each Empire has a "Diplomatic Strength" v. each other Empire (you invest influence to increase it, and it decreases if you are at war)

This is separate from the actual Diplomatic "state" ie War v. Peace v. Ally

AB DS = Diplomatic Strength Empire A has v. Empire B


For 1. "Win-Win" situations

AB DS + BA DS = total relationship strength

If total relationship strength is high enough, and the empires are not currently at war
Then Either Empire B OR Empire A can build an"agreement" that gives them some benefit
ie
Empire A builds a "Research Agreement" so whenever B gets a tech A does not have, A gets X% of that tech's cost paid off (B could also build a Research Agreement that gives them the same thing A gets)

The only way B can stop this is to declare War on A (or possibly a project to reduce A's Diplomatic Strength)

One of the "Agreements" I can make is a "Shared win" (requiring a very high level of Diplomatic Strength, being Allies, and taking a long time to complete..possibly causing unhappiness if it is in place based on Government/Policy differences)... if every empire has an active "Shared Win" with Every other empire, they all win... it might have some method of working with Transcendance as well.

2. For "Convincing another empire to do things
for this we work on Happiness
AB DS - BA DS (if greater than 0) = Unhappiness in Empire B if they are at War with A
AB DS - BA DS = Unhappiness/Happiness in Empire B if they are at War/Peace with a Third Party (based on projects you build "Warbroker"/"Peacebroker" that target both B and the Third Party empire)

AB DS + BA DS =Happiness in Empire B+Empire A if they are allied

AB DS - (BA DS/2) (if greater than 0) =extra Happiness in B from (gifts they have given to A - gifts A has given to them)..can give unhappiness if you have given them more than they have given you in your 'running tab"



So if you have a high Diplomatic Strength...
-your enemies will be unhappy because they are your enemies
-they will be encouraged to do what you want
-both you and your allies will be happier
-Empires will want to give you more than you have given them
-You can Win without War

all the while all the actual Decisions (War or not, Ally or not, invest in Research Agreements or not) are fully under player control...Diplomacy just adds costs to them

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Oberlus
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Re: Influence Discussion

#28 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:33 amSo there has been talk about possibly using "agents" at some point but that seems to be a maybe.
No idea what you mean. Links, please?
Right now there is nothing definite to replace the current idea. Even then it would probably still be done through influence projects.
If we are talking about ideas (and not already implemented mechanics), we have influence projects, policy cards and planetary focus. I don't think we need anything else (maybe some adjustments). And you keep repeating "influence projects" and I'm not sure you mean it as if it is the only option. Be sure that for some kind of influence effects we will prefer policy cards over influence projects, as I sketched before.
I have checked them out and right now there really sin't any discussion on exactly how governments should work. Aside from suggestions I made in the Policy Card jumble there hasn't been any discussion here about what exactly governments should look like.
Maybe you didn't read all the linked threads? This one from 2003 has a lot of ideas on government types and what would be their strengths and weaknesses.
Everything on the lists I made are supposed to be influence projects. Not anything else.
If all the effects you've listed are better represented (gameplay-wise) with influence projects than with other options, then we for sure lack more influence effects. Otherwise some of the effects will be better off the project thingy. As said before, self-exclusive effects (among others) should be policies and I can't believe we don't have anything like that influence related. And I can see policy cards would be better than continuous projects for empire-wide effects of long duration (like increasing your empire's overall resistance to external propaganda).
I am thinking though that some kind of "Conservation" policy might be necessary for Conserve Environment and Conserve Ecology
Seems interesting. What do you mean? What would be the effect of having such policy active or not having it?
"Communications Array" building might be necessary for the Marketing projects
Here, and also before, you say "necessary". You mean better for gameplay in some sense, when compared to not requiring it or requiring something else? Making such thoughts explicit would be great for the design process.
Similarly I have been thinking the regular and Primitive Diplomatic missions, as well as the Technological Uplifts might require special technologies or policies to use
Diplomatic missions seem like a targeted effect? And so I don't think policy cards would be good for that. And I don't know what is Technological Uplifts. Have you described its effect somewhere?
As I said before, it would be great to detail every suggestion. The tables you've posted would greatly benefit from a last column with the description of the effects.
I will say that I don't know that policies need to come with a malus. I think just having a bonus would be fine.
But Geoff and other developers think otherwise. And I agree with them, bringing in a malus together with the bonus (as long as the malus is irrelevant with that bonus) is quite interesting in gameplay and strategy, IMO.
My thought is that the projects would apply a tag or effect to the target and the counter-project would remove it.
I think I don't understand, more wording, please. So I start a mass-destruction project and (once finished or during it's building up?) it applies an effect on the planet (a count down or something and then it explodes? how is the mass-destruction applied? it removes a percentage of population or a fixed amount?), but the target can start an opposite project (must be started before the offensive project finishes?) that counters it (how? just removing the bad effect? or minimising its effect?). Do this kind of projects require more than one turn? Having less available influence than your attacker means you can not defend from their offensive projects? Or having surplus influence projects does not help at all and any empire, as weak as it be, if they finish their countering project on time (what time?), are able to counter the most powerful enemy project?.
And I'm sure I could have more questions.
To answering those questions is that I think we need to detail better our proposals. For each and every one of the proposed influence projects.
I think the general idea is that producing influence will work like research and production through an influence focus. The idea also seems to be that this will be a primary focus also similar to research and production.
Yes, unless we don't find the correct equations. Krikkitone's proposals seems rather good, but I need simulations to see it in practice.
I think we shall try Krikkitones (and maybe others') ideas first, but I have an idea for a plan B if that doesn't work.

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labgnome
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Re: Influence Discussion

#29 Post by labgnome »

Krikkitone wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:48 amPrimarily Generated: focused planets-population influence, some buildings
I think we are on the same page here. Primarily through a planetary focus with one or more buildings to boost. Influence boosting policies and technologies should also be kept in mind.
Maintenance... to limit snowballing maintenance costs should be the square of the thing being maintained.

Maintenance for planets=X*(# of planets^2)+Y*(#of planets)...pay this or planets become more and more unhappy and eventually rebel...decreasing your number of planets and solving your problem
[Policys & techs can affect X and Y...as well as obviously boosting your influence production per planet]

Maintenance for fleets=same formula, different X and Y... possibly just total ship slots or some other number....pay this or your fleets become more and more unhappy and eventually they desert in the middle of battle, or even join the other side.
So I'm not trying to shoot down your idea but there has already been a lot of talk about what should cost influence and how much already in this topic here. I don't know that we need to try to re-invent the wheel in this topic. I think the general idea was that the number of planets, number of star systems, number of species, number of ships, and number and type of ship parts would all cost influence.
Policies
Influence should be needed to swap policy cards, and to swap "governments" with card slots to more advanced/different types
Possibly more influence is needed the first time you "activate" a card, if you activate one you used before it might cost less.
I had a similar idea but instead I was thinking that governments and policies would have influence upkeep costs. Switching governments could possibly be implimented as an internal influence project.
Projects
Internal-things to boost/protect your empire

Espionage-things to attack other empires/get a benefit from them against their will

Diplomacy-things to convince another empire to give you a benefit (*see proposal below)
Diplomacy projects: with other Empires
Foreign Missions-target Empire- (Increases Diplomatic Strength)
Warbroker/Peacebroker-targets 2 Other Empires -causes happiness/unhappiness based on their War/peace status
Independence-remove Warbroker/Peacebroker Projects applied to you...if the other party is investing in this as well, then it will activate early
Research Agreements-target Empire-get a fraction of their Research
Trade Agreements-target Empire-get a bonus to Influence+Industry generation
Supply Agreements-target Empire-use that empires Supply routes as yours
Shared Win -target Empire-Can win together with this empire
I don't know that I am in favor of using the influence project mechanic to do diplomacy. Now mind you; I do like the idea of things like wars, treaties and alliances costing influence to maintain. However I do think that diplomacy should be it's own thing. I also do not know if now is the right time to be working out diplomacy when we haven't even fully worked out influence yet.
Diplomacy Proposal
*Here is what I see as things diplomacy should do in the game

1. Win-win situations (I get a benefit that doesn't hurt you... but unlike espionage you know about it..and can get the same benefit from me)** including reaching a "Shared Win"
2. Convincing another empire to do nice things for me and bad things to my enemies

For a diplomacy model what I would have

Each Empire has a "Diplomatic Strength" v. each other Empire (you invest influence to increase it, and it decreases if you are at war)

This is separate from the actual Diplomatic "state" ie War v. Peace v. Ally

AB DS = Diplomatic Strength Empire A has v. Empire B
At the risk of de-railing this topic, I have a lot of questions about this idea:
How would diplomatic strength be related to influence?
If it's not the same as influence what else contributes to your diplomatic strength?
How would this be different form an "opinion" meter?
How would these diplomatic functions be different from the propaganda influence projects already discussed?
So if you have a high Diplomatic Strength...
-your enemies will be unhappy because they are your enemies
-they will be encouraged to do what you want
-both you and your allies will be happier
-Empires will want to give you more than you have given them
-You can Win without War

all the while all the actual Decisions (War or not, Ally or not, invest in Research Agreements or not) are fully under player control...Diplomacy just adds costs to them
My main concern with this is that I could see it working with an AI Empire, but I don't know about player empires. I don't think it would be very fun for an unfriendly AI empire to be able to force my hand diplomatically just because they had
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

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labgnome
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Re: Influence Discussion

#30 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:13 am
labgnome wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:33 amSo there has been talk about possibly using "agents" at some point but that seems to be a maybe.
No idea what you mean. Links, please?
The one I was thinking of is this post here. However I do not know that that is something that we even want to implement so I wouldn't make plans around it.
If we are talking about ideas (and not already implemented mechanics), we have influence projects, policy cards and planetary focus. I don't think we need anything else (maybe some adjustments). And you keep repeating "influence projects" and I'm not sure you mean it as if it is the only option. Be sure that for some kind of influence effects we will prefer policy cards over influence projects, as I sketched before.
Some might be better as policy cards. But I am thinking more that there will be influence effecting policy cards, like research or production effecting policy cards.
Maybe you didn't read all the linked threads? This one from 2003 has a lot of ideas on government types and what would be their strengths and weaknesses.
I skimmed over that one. But only the last post makes any mention of possible effects or advantages related to game-play in Free Orion. Even then there is mention of things like "stability" which doesn't exist. It's not a particularly useful thread. Also there are no topics discussing the currently proposed mechanics on the forum in any detail. There is no discussion about what kind of policy slots there will be for policy cards, or what governments will get what numbers of policy slots, or what effects (if any) governments will have. That isn't being talked about on the forum.
If all the effects you've listed are better represented (gameplay-wise) with influence projects than with other options, then we for sure lack more influence effects. Otherwise some of the effects will be better off the project thingy. As said before, self-exclusive effects (among others) should be policies and I can't believe we don't have anything like that influence related. And I can see policy cards would be better than continuous projects for empire-wide effects of long duration (like increasing your empire's overall resistance to external propaganda).
What do you mean by "influence effects"? I am totally confused here.
I don't think that any of the proposed influence projects would count as self-exclusive.
I am thinking though that some kind of "Conservation" policy might be necessary for Conserve Environment and Conserve Ecology
Seems interesting. What do you mean? What would be the effect of having such policy active or not having it?
So I suppose as a general proposal is that the "conservation" policy might provide a slight, probably flat, research bonus on its own, but also enable you to engage the respective influence projects. Not having it active would mean you wouldn't get the influence projects or any effect from them.
"Communications Array" building might be necessary for the Marketing projects
Here, and also before, you say "necessary". You mean better for gameplay in some sense, when compared to not requiring it or requiring something else? Making such thoughts explicit would be great for the design process.
Some of these ideas I am not completely set on. I am just trying to see what kind of reception they get.
Diplomatic missions seem like a targeted effect? And so I don't think policy cards would be good for that. And I don't know what is Technological Uplifts. Have you described its effect somewhere?
As I said before, it would be great to detail every suggestion. The tables you've posted would greatly benefit from a last column with the description of the effects.
Why do you keep bringing up policy cards?
I might have failed to spell out technological uplift. However I assumed it was a well-known enough sci-fi trope for most people to get what I was referring to. Basically it would apply the moderate tech or high tech special to the planet with natives in question. This is primarily assuming that high-tech natives will be the easiest to get diplomatically, and thus making those planets easier to obtain.
I will say that I don't know that policies need to come with a malus. I think just having a bonus would be fine.
But Geoff and other developers think otherwise. And I agree with them, bringing in a malus together with the bonus (as long as the malus is irrelevant with that bonus) is quite interesting in gameplay and strategy, IMO.
Where and when did this discussion happen? I don't completely hate the idea, but I am a bit concerned about the execution. Especially if policies are supposed to take over the boosts we currently get from technologies. So far the only thing I knew for sure about the policy cared is that they would work like in Civ VI, and they don't come with any malus there.
I think I don't understand, more wording, please. So I start a mass-destruction project and (once finished or during it's building up?) it applies an effect on the planet (a count down or something and then it explodes? how is the mass-destruction applied? it removes a percentage of population or a fixed amount?), but the target can start an opposite project (must be started before the offensive project finishes?) that counters it (how? just removing the bad effect? or minimising its effect?). Do this kind of projects require more than one turn? Having less available influence than your attacker means you can not defend from their offensive projects? Or having surplus influence projects does not help at all and any empire, as weak as it be, if they finish their countering project on time (what time?), are able to counter the most powerful enemy project?
So the concept I have for Mass Destruction is that it would remove 0.5 population per turn until the planet is depopulated. You would have the option of using Counter Terrorism to remove Mass Destruction. My thought is that projects should take more then one turn to finish in general. If the project is successfully countered, it can be started again. Countering projects would remove applied effects, not act preemptively. Currently I have no ideas about making projects more or less "powerful".
I think the general idea is that producing influence will work like research and production through an influence focus. The idea also seems to be that this will be a primary focus also similar to research and production.
Yes, unless we don't find the correct equations. Krikkitone's proposals seems rather good, but I need simulations to see it in practice.
I think we shall try Krikkitones (and maybe others') ideas first, but I have an idea for a plan B if that doesn't work.
There were proposals for influence costs in the Influence and Happiness topic, which I think we should work off of first before starting over from scratch.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

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