Species modified during gameplay?

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Vezzra
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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#16 Post by Vezzra » Wed May 01, 2019 3:49 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:42 pm
And what do you think of OP's suggestions? (hybridisation of species during game, not custom species before starting a game).
Hard to say... for that to work well, I suspect the underlying framework defining and implementing the species mechanics certainly will need a substantial extension/revision. Probably enough to go all the way to a Stellaris-like system anyway. That is said from a technical (implementation) POV.

From a purely gameplay perspective the idea certainly sounds interesting.

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Vezzra
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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#17 Post by Vezzra » Wed May 01, 2019 3:51 pm

That all said, I've always much preferred games which allow for custom species over those with only fixed species. However, that adds a lot of complexity of course...

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labgnome
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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#18 Post by labgnome » Wed May 01, 2019 4:28 pm

Vezzra wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:49 pm
Oberlus wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:42 pm
And what do you think of OP's suggestions? (hybridisation of species during game, not custom species before starting a game).
Hard to say... for that to work well, I suspect the underlying framework defining and implementing the species mechanics certainly will need a substantial extension/revision. Probably enough to go all the way to a Stellaris-like system anyway. That is said from a technical (implementation) POV.

From a purely gameplay perspective the idea certainly sounds interesting.
I am thinking that if we are going to have species modification in-game that we should have custom species before starting the game. Custom species is definitely something I would like to see. Stellaris' customization both before start and in the game is a pretty enjoyable system.
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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#19 Post by Oberlus » Wed May 01, 2019 4:50 pm

labgnome wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 4:28 pm
I am thinking that if we are going to have species modification in-game that we should have custom species before starting the game. Custom species is definitely something I would like to see. Stellaris' customization both before start and in the game is a pretty enjoyable system.
Please, no offence intended, but you already said that:
labgnome wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:51 am
However I would that before we implement something like that as an in-game feature we should probably have a species creation option for starting off.
As I already answered you, these two are independent suggestions and two independent mechanics.
Can we keep this thread for the OP's suggestion and this other thread for custom species subject?

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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#20 Post by labgnome » Wed May 01, 2019 5:18 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 4:50 pm
Please, no offence intended, but you already said that:
Sorry didn't mean to repeat myself.
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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#21 Post by Krikkitone » Wed May 01, 2019 6:55 pm

As for the OP's idea
"Hybridization" with no 'point values' involved

it should probably NOT apply to EP (ie Radiated and Inferno Hybridize to Barren) in most cases because getting a new EP far from what you have is a really big benefit)

What I could see

Species A; EP A, Good pilots, bad industry, metabolism X
Species B; EP B, Good Industry, bad pilots, metabolism X

You can build a Hybrid species
Species C, EP either A or B your choice, (Good pilots + bad industry) OR (Good Industry+bad pilots) your choice, Metabolism X

So that you could get a set of bonuses and spread them

With a more advanced version
Species A; EP A, Good pilots, bad industry, metabolism A
Species B; EP B, Good Industry, bad pilots, metabolism B

Species C: EP A or B your Choice, (Good pilots + bad industry) OR (Good Industry+bad pilots) your choice, metabolism A or B your choice

That way the species overall stay somewhat balanced, but you create a somewhat new species (same picks but 'new to this species' EP and/or metabolism)

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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#22 Post by Oberlus » Wed May 01, 2019 8:10 pm

Krikkitone wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:55 pm
it should probably NOT apply to EP (ie Radiated and Inferno Hybridize to Barren) in most cases because getting a new EP far from what you have is a really big benefit)
Not sure I agree on this.
Species A; EP A, Good pilots, bad industry, metabolism A
Species B; EP B, Good Industry, bad pilots, metabolism B

Species C: EP A or B your Choice, (Good pilots + bad industry) OR (Good Industry+bad pilots) your choice, metabolism A or B your choice
So you can pick metabolism and EP of any of the two original species and all the other traits from one or the other but not mixing them. Another example just to be sure:
Species A; EP A, Great pilots, bad industry, bad research, rest average, metabolism A
Species B; EP B, Average everything, metabolism B
Species C: EP A or B your Choice, (Great pilots, bad industry, bad research, rest average) OR (Average everything) your choice, metabolism A or B your choice

Thus, hybridisation would be good to adjust metabolisms and EPs of your species but not to get new combinations of other traits. Then, the tech would not be useful to improve EP, only to get a better (for your current interests) species on the environments you already can colonise with worse (idem) species. As a first impression, this seems a bit underpowered. Current hybridisation tech does give you access to all environments (literally all of them, not just some afar from your current accessible environments).

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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#23 Post by labgnome » Wed May 01, 2019 9:16 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 8:10 pm
So you can pick metabolism and EP of any of the two original species and all the other traits from one or the other but not mixing them. Another example just to be sure:
Species A; EP A, Great pilots, bad industry, bad research, rest average, metabolism A
Species B; EP B, Average everything, metabolism B
Species C: EP A or B your Choice, (Great pilots, bad industry, bad research, rest average) OR (Average everything) your choice, metabolism A or B your choice

Thus, hybridisation would be good to adjust metabolisms and EPs of your species but not to get new combinations of other traits. Then, the tech would not be useful to improve EP, only to get a better (for your current interests) species on the environments you already can colonise with worse (idem) species. As a first impression, this seems a bit underpowered. Current hybridisation tech does give you access to all environments (literally all of them, not just some afar from your current accessible environments).
Maybe if we want mix-and-match metabolisms we could have a way to "unlock" different versions of them Maybe something like the following:
  • Androids: robotic-metabolism versions
  • Golems: lithic metabolism versions
  • Replicants: organic metabolism versions
So you could have Human Golems and Egassem Replicants and Scylior Androids. I'm currently at a bit of a loss for what we could call phototrophic or self-sustaining versions. Although those introduce potential balance issues. Self-sustaining is powerful and phototrophic can be conditionally weak.
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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#24 Post by Krikkitone » Thu May 02, 2019 2:21 am

Oberlus wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 8:10 pm
Thus, hybridisation would be good to adjust metabolisms and EPs of your species but not to get new combinations of other traits. Then, the tech would not be useful to improve EP, only to get a better (for your current interests) species on the environments you already can colonise with worse (idem) species. As a first impression, this seems a bit underpowered. Current hybridisation tech does give you access to all environments (literally all of them, not just some afar from your current accessible environments).
Well those wouldn't just be Access to the EP, but the EP would be ideal, not just accessible.

also the problem with other versions is the balance, the Hybrid could be fantastically better/worse depending on the situation if we don't have a point system

Perhaps The options could be
Species A: EP A
Species B: EP B

Hybrid species: EP is either A, one step from A towards B, B, or one step from B towards A

So you have 4 options (if they are at least 2 apart)

labgnome wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:16 pm
Maybe if we want mix-and-match metabolisms we could have a way to "unlock" different versions of them Maybe something like the following:
  • Androids: robotic-metabolism versions
  • Golems: lithic metabolism versions
  • Replicants: organic metabolism versions
So you could have Human Golems and Egassem Replicants and Scylior Androids. I'm currently at a bit of a loss for what we could call phototrophic or self-sustaining versions. Although those introduce potential balance issues. Self-sustaining is powerful and phototrophic can be conditionally weak.
I agree phototropic and self-sustaining are powerful, perhaps only organic, robotic, and lithic would work (maybe outside of a high level tech...plus I really like those names)
Last edited by Krikkitone on Thu May 02, 2019 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#25 Post by Oberlus » Thu May 02, 2019 8:13 am

Krikkitone wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:21 am
Well those wouldn't just be Access to the EP, but the EP would be ideal, not just accessible.
Currently, late game good (ideal) means hostile +37.5% population. That ideal isn't that great (but this can be seen as bad balance). Nevertheless, if you get access to hostile and terraforming, then access to hostile means ideal in around 20 turns.
On the other hand, if this hybridisation only gives you good access to some EP but not to others, the overall gain is smaller, isn't it?
also the problem with other versions is the balance, the Hybrid could be fantastically better/worse depending on the situation if we don't have a
Assuming the end of the sentence was going to be "a point system", I'd say that what you could do with that system could be fantastically better/worse depending on the situation.

I also thing that being allowed to mix metabolisms, if that includes phototrophic and self-sustaining, would be OP.

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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#26 Post by labgnome » Thu May 02, 2019 11:57 am

Oberlus wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:13 am
I also thing that being allowed to mix metabolisms, if that includes phototrophic and self-sustaining, would be OP.
Just try to imagine a Trith/Egassem hybrid.
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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#27 Post by Krikkitone » Thu May 02, 2019 6:03 pm

OK here's a proposal

Basic Hybridization, All must be same Metabolism, EPs are only separated by 1
Candidate Species
Species A: EP 1
Species B: EP 2
Species C: EP 3

Hybrid using A+B: EP 1 or 2
Hybrid using A+C: EP 1, 2, or 3

Then have the remaining picks come in a set from one of the candidate species

Advanced Hybridization, species can be any metabolism or EP, 3 different techs (Organic=Replicant Hybridization, Robotic=Android Hybridization, Lithic=Golem Hybridization)

Species A
Species A: EP A
Species B: EP B

Hybrid species: EP is any between A+B, Picks are from Either one in a set, Metabolism depends on the tech used (Organic, Robotic, Lithic)

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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#28 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat May 04, 2019 6:59 am

One more reason against arbitrary species - Currently the preferred environment of species is used to balance species. They compete for niche/slots. And i think actually that should be more pronounced than it is currently.

So if there is some way to extend the environmental capabilities of a species, it should nerf the species at the same time (so no species trait better than average, some bad traits). The power level for such environmentally enhanced species should be not be better than exobot.


Also somebody said that we need arbitrary species design before we have in-game species development. That is a fallacy and not true at all.

What is possible already and would be more interesting would be specific development options for the existing species which tie in with the species fluff. So e.g. the trith could research/build a population-reengineering which would take away the telepathic abilities of the trith on a planet. This would be a loss, but the resulting Trithl species get peace of mind (So, no xenophobic effects, no telepathy, maybe nerf industry or research). Why would an empire want Trithl? To remove the xenophobic side effects on other species without depopulating Trith worlds.

This is already implementable with predefined species, or buildings/specials/tags on a planet.
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Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Species modified during gameplay?

#29 Post by The Silent One » Sat May 04, 2019 7:57 am

Ophiuchus wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 6:59 am
What is possible already and would be more interesting would be specific development options for the existing species which tie in with the species fluff.
This I'd love.
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