Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderator: Oberlus

Message
Author
User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 3000
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

#16 Post by Oberlus »

Krikkitone wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 4:16 pm I think the idea of low stability->Rebellion is under low stability rebel troops are generated each turn, and they "invade" the planet like any other troops... if they kill off all the defenders they win. (hence why I like 100 to -100, at negative values the rebels generated per turn = the "instability")
Now I see the utility.
What I have in mind is placing thresholds, like we have with happiness: [0,+10], with 5+ to enable ship repair and colonisation source. In the [-N,+N] interval you can use the zero as a threshold between good and bad effects. We could have happiness [-5,+5], and 0 to enable ship repair, etc. But I don't think that is the best approach because we my need multiple thresholds (e.g. [0,5[: bad effects, [5,10[: nothing, [10,20]: good effects), and then using the zero is not necessarily clearer.

Re: rebels and the taking of the planet
If rebels are always equal to instability (is that possible? I assume certain policies, traits, etc. could modify the rebels generation), then ok. But if there would be need for a new meter ("rebels", probably besides "troops")... Is there any gameplay effect that is impossible or hindered unless you have a new meter for rebels? If we can avoid a new meter, great. I'm becoming a KISSaholic.

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

#17 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 4:46 pm Re: rebels and the taking of the planet
If rebels are always equal to instability (is that possible? I assume certain policies, traits, etc. could modify the rebels generation), then ok. But if there would be need for a new meter ("rebels", probably besides "troops")... Is there any gameplay effect that is impossible or hindered unless you have a new meter for rebels? If we can avoid a new meter, great. I'm becoming a KISSaholic.
I would go with stability over instability. I would have one rebel generated for every turn stability is under 50, and destroy one troop every turn for stability under 25. I would also have each rebel reduce stability, causing an accelerated reduction in stability. Then have you loose the planet when the number of troops reaches 0. That strikes me as a fairly simple rebellion mechanic.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 3000
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

#18 Post by Oberlus »

I would go with no rebels.
If we are going to make some kind of minigame with the troops vs rebels battle, then ok. Otherwise, if it is just for the colony desertion mechanic, then not having a meter for rebels (just the stability meter) is find. The same you can say "once rebels>troops colony deserts" you can say "once stability drops to zero colony deserts".

User avatar
Krikkitone
Creative Contributor
Posts: 1530
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:52 pm

Re: Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

#19 Post by Krikkitone »

For rebels I assume they would act like normal invaders.

12 rebels added to different worlds

Defenders=25
add 12 rebels

Defenders =25-12=13

if Defenders=5
add 12 rebels

Rebels=12-5=7
(rebels are the new defenders, planet has left the empire)

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

#20 Post by labgnome »

Krikkitone wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 11:10 pm For rebels I assume they would act like normal invaders.

12 rebels added to different worlds

Defenders=25
add 12 rebels

Defenders =25-12=13

if Defenders=5
add 12 rebels

Rebels=12-5=7
(rebels are the new defenders, planet has left the empire)
I like this model. Do you think the number/strength of rebels generated should be at least partially determined by species defensive troop stats?
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 1713
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

#21 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 4:46 pm If rebels are always equal to instability (is that possible? I assume certain policies, traits, etc. could modify the rebels generation), then ok. But if there would be need for a new meter ("rebels", probably besides "troops")... Is there any gameplay effect that is impossible or hindered unless you have a new meter for rebels? If we can avoid a new meter, great. I'm becoming a KISSaholic.
But I also do not see anything yet in your proposals which could not be done using effects. E.g. you would see the rebels decimating troops in the planetary troop projection "-4 killed by rebels (low stability)"

In the backend there is already a property for rebels (maybe it is a meter, would have to look).
Extending on that i imagined to keep rebels as a different kind of troops which support independence only, that are partly to stay if a planet goes independent. Or they could help achieving independence on another planet. Reminding me of "War on Terror", there it is cheaper to generate terrorists than regular armies. They will fight your enemy but are not loyal to you - so if countries don't restrain themselves in the end the earth is full of terrorists. Also with a meter rebels could accumulate before attacking (so it may sense to trigger a rebellion on your own planet to get rid of the prematurely attacking rebels).
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 3000
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

#22 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat May 25, 2019 5:34 am
Oberlus wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 4:46 pm If rebels are always equal to instability (is that possible? I assume certain policies, traits, etc. could modify the rebels generation), then ok. But if there would be need for a new meter ("rebels", probably besides "troops")... Is there any gameplay effect that is impossible or hindered unless you have a new meter for rebels? If we can avoid a new meter, great. I'm becoming a KISSaholic.
But I also do not see anything yet in your proposals which could not be done using effects. E.g. you would see the rebels decimating troops in the planetary troop projection "-4 killed by rebels (low stability)"
I think we are at a misunderstanding here. Maybe should have said "mechanic" instead of "effect".
Let me try to explain better:

If the mechanics we want to enable/implement are "colony unrest that lowers output" and "colony desertion/independisation", then if we can do it with the two meters we already show in the GUI (troops and happines-to-be-stability), getting the same result in terms of gameplay, then I don't see the point of having to rearrange the GUI items and introduce more values for the player to keep and eye on.
Colony unrest is perfectly represented by Stability, and colony desertion can be triggered when Stability reaches 0, meaning that the rebels (including any imperial troops deserting from the army to join the rebels) have been able to overcome the imperial forces.
This system has, apart from being simpler and requiring less implementation effort, the advantage of being more versatily to represent other forms of rebellion. For example, for a pacifist alien species that does not fight, at all, the colony desertion wouldn't imply rebels but the whole society saying "we don't want you anymore" and taking control over the colony peacefully (unless there is some kind of policy that makes that impossible, e.g. robotic policemen not under the control of the local population). Or a hive-mind species, they can't diferentiate between troops and citizens, because they all are the same mind. If a citizen was to rebel out, so it was the troop. All these things are perfectly represented by the Stability meter without need of calculating or showing a rebels value.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 1713
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

#23 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Sat May 25, 2019 11:21 am If the mechanics we want to enable/implement are "colony unrest that lowers output" and "colony desertion/independisation", then if we can do it with the two meters we already show in the GUI (troops and happines-to-be-stability), getting the same result in terms of gameplay, then I don't see the point of having to rearrange the GUI items and introduce more values for the player to keep and eye on.
I wasn't suggesting any extra GUI items or values. I also probably misunderstood/had the impression you wanted something like rebels killing regular troops like krikkitone and labgnome were discussing.
Oberlus wrote: Sat May 25, 2019 11:21 am Colony unrest is perfectly represented by Stability, and colony desertion can be triggered when Stability reaches 0, meaning that the rebels (including any imperial troops deserting from the army to join the rebels) have been able to overcome the imperial forces.
That would be probably the most simple form of rebellion. I will try to rethink if that works in the scope of my sector proposal.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
LienRag
Space Dragon
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

#24 Post by LienRag »

I hope I'm not belaying your request to stick to the mechanics, but I do think sowing discontent should not be allowed out of the blue.

Allowing this to happen anytime a richer enemy wants doesn't produce an enjoyable gameplay imho, and would probably cause a need to micromanage each planet in order to defend against it.

Such subversion operations should be available only at specific moments: when a planet is blockaded, just after it got invaded, when its happiness is low, when a rival specie is included into the Empire, when political regime changes, when its focus is shifted away from its preferred focus, even maybe when some cosmic evenement (ion cloud or anything similar) blocks communication with the rest of the Empire...

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 3000
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

#25 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 4:38 pmsowing discontent should not be allowed out of the blue.

Allowing this to happen anytime a richer enemy wants doesn't produce an enjoyable gameplay imho, and would probably cause a need to micromanage each planet in order to defend against it.
Indeed. It shall be made in a way that makes it enjoyable the same we get joy from the military conquest game. It must not be OP, it must not cause micromanagement (for either of the implied empires, influencer and influenced), it must not be useless. Cross fingers.
Such subversion operations should be available only at specific moments:
More than "available", I would say "successful". They should be useless against colonies stable/happy enough (the same way it's useless to attack a well defended planet with a puny army), be a problem for not so happy colonies (force the owner to take some action to improve stability) and a real crisis in unhappy colonies (i.e. hard to counter by the owner, who in order to avoid this situation should have managed better the stability of the colony in advance).
  • when colony's happiness is low: as explained above.
  • when a planet is blockaded: it's planned that blockades cause discontent in the colonies, so this would be included in the simple mechanics that only considers current stability/happiness.
  • just after it got invaded: if you mean the subversion is done by the empire that just lost the colony, that makes sense, but anyway, the happiness after an invasion is certainly low, so idem as above.
  • when a rival species is included into the Empire: if that lowers happiness, then yes, and idem as above.
  • when political regime changes: nothing about governments yet, but if that lowers happiness, idem.
  • when its focus is shifted away from its preferred focus: that causes discontent, so idem.
  • even maybe when some cosmic event (ion cloud or anything similar) blocks communication with the rest of the Empire: that's interesting, but if it has lost communication with the rest of the empire, then it also lost it with the influencing empire, right?

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Types of conquest. Stability&Allegiance. Colony status

#26 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sat May 25, 2019 11:21 amIf the mechanics we want to enable/implement are "colony unrest that lowers output" and "colony desertion/independisation", then if we can do it with the two meters we already show in the GUI (troops and happines-to-be-stability), getting the same result in terms of gameplay, then I don't see the point of having to rearrange the GUI items and introduce more values for the player to keep and eye on.
Colony unrest is perfectly represented by Stability, and colony desertion can be triggered when Stability reaches 0, meaning that the rebels (including any imperial troops deserting from the army to join the rebels) have been able to overcome the imperial forces.
Assuming a scale of 0 to 100 stability, maybe something like the following:
  • Stability at 50: cannot produce new colony
  • Stability at 40: cannot repair ships, -20% troops
  • Stability at 30: cannot build buildings, -20% troops (-40% total)
  • Stability at 20: cannot build ships, -20% troops (-60% total)
  • Stability at 10: cannot use focus-boosting buildings (Industrial Center ect...), -20% troops (-80% total)
  • Stability at 0: planet is lost, -20% troops/0 troops (-100% total)
You could also have bonuses for high stability like the following:
  • Stability at 60: +20% focus output
  • Stability at 70: -1 ship build time, +20% focus output (+40% total)
  • Stability at 80: -1 ship build time (-2 total), -1 building build time, +20% focus output (+60% total)
  • Stability at 90: -1 ship build time (-3 total), -1 building build time (-2 total), +20% focus output (+80% total)
  • Stability at 100: -1 ship build time (-4 total), -1 building build time (-3 total), +20% focus output/2x focus output (+100% total)
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

Post Reply