Make outpost only TRANSPORT supply

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jinlanid
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Make outpost only TRANSPORT supply

#1 Post by jinlanid » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:32 pm

What about make outpost DON'T provide supply, but only TRANSPORT supply?
So if you have connection to only 1 or more outpost, your fleet can't get supply.

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Oberlus
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Re: Make outpost only TRANSPORT supply

#2 Post by Oberlus » Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:57 pm

I'm not sure I understand. I don't think the concept "transport supply" makes sense here. Supply carries itself and is only blocked by armed ships or a foreign colony's supply.
If outpost does not provide supply, so supply=0, you can't be connected to an outpost. If a ship is within the supply of a colony, the fact that there are (or not) zero-supply outposts in between is irrelevant.

I'd appreciate if you try to make more constructive suggestions, including always the motivation for the suggestion and what do you expect from the change.
For general ideas related to the same subject, please stick to posts in a single thread.

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Vezzra
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Re: Make outpost only TRANSPORT supply

#3 Post by Vezzra » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:40 pm

I think what the OP meant was that outposts should act like repeaters in WLANs: they can extend the range of the WLAN, but don't spawn one themselves.

Meaning, a lonely outpost that isn't within range of the supply network does not provide any supply by itself. But if it is within range of the supply network, it increases the range of it. This way outposts become extenders of the supply network, without being a source of supply.

I think that idea has some merit. It would nerf outposts somewhat, as you can't just plop down one in the middle of nowhere and have a source of supply, but you can still use them to extend existing supply lines. Makes the mechanic more interesting IMO.

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Oberlus
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Re: Make outpost only TRANSPORT supply

#4 Post by Oberlus » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:15 pm

I think I understand it now, but I need confirmation:

Outposts' supply meters would not be forced to zero (i.e. if you research Orbital Cons. your outposts will get +1 supply), but only count for fleet supply (fuel, repairs) if it is connected to a supply group with colonies. Examples:

( empty A ) <--starlane--> ( Outpost supply=1 ) <----> ( empty B ) <----> ( empty C ) <----> ( empty D ) <----> ( Colony supply=2 )

Since Outpost and Colony are connected thanks to their combined supply (i.e. Colony's supply does not reach Outpost system by itself, it is thanks to Outpost supply), a fleet at system empty A could refuel and repair.

If we remove the colony from the example, fleets at empty A or empty B (that are within supply of Outpost) won't be able to get any supply.

So outposts that cannot connect to a supply group with colonies get an effective supply of zero, although for the calculations of to what supply group is connected the actual supply meter must be used.


I don't support (for now) this suggestion. Maybe I need examples of utility.
From my limited experience, the blitzkriegs are based on conquering colonies (that have supply with OP's suggestion) more than outposts. Since my playstyle focuses on pacific expansion when enemies are not nearby, my borders will be expanding towards the enemies' and will have a colony or connected outpost from where to attack, and I will attack to conquer a colony.

The only cases where I've deployed an outpost that wasn't connected to a colony was because I was unlucky (or sly) and I had to do that or wait for 10*N turns for the colony to replenish fuel, one every 10 turns. So OP's suggestion would make some sparse games very annoying to play and I don't see it would have a considerable impact on the issue of the blitzkriegs.

Ophiuchus
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Re: Make outpost only TRANSPORT supply

#5 Post by Ophiuchus » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:44 pm

I think such a thing (creating supply if connected to supply generating network) makes sense for making supply connections more brittle targets.
Oberlus point that one rarely uses outposts in comparison to colonies might depend on the galaxy layout, how hard it is to find fitting environments and how much colonies cost in comparison to outposts.

It would be more devastating if somebody disconnects the supply line. A similar idea would be that one point of supply is actually coming from the imperial palace and planets get this supply bonus only if supply-connected to the imperial palace.
Makes for interesting options (covered attack on system space on/close to capital planet) and also switching of capital more costly.

I am not sure that blitzkrieg needs a nerf, I also think that this topic is mostly disconnected. The only case I imagine this matters is if you go deep in enemy territory, conquering an outpost (because conquering planet would be too expensive) for refueling the fleet on the way. For nerfing blitzkrieg, in my opinion it would make more sense to slow down growth of supply meter.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Vezzra
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Re: Make outpost only TRANSPORT supply

#6 Post by Vezzra » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:21 am

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:15 pm
I think I understand it now, but I need confirmation [...]
Yep, exactly that.

As for the usefulness of such a change: As Ophiuchus pointed out, that probably depends very much on the chosen galaxy settings/preferred playstyle. For maps where you don't really ever need outposts to help supply connecting your colonies it won't make any difference at all, but on maps where you actually need them it could make things more interesting.

That seems to be one of those things we'd need to try to see how they actually work in practice.

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