Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderator: Oberlus

Message
Author
User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#1 Post by labgnome »

I believe this idea, or something similar has been brought up before in other discussions, but hasn't gotten it's own thread to my knowledge, so I am starting one.

The general idea is that currently colony ships are too weak and using them is made almost completely irrelevant by the colony building. Having the colony parts boost fuel would allow colony ships to become a way to have them be much more useful in establishing colonies outside of your supply range. Currently I don't really use colony pods in my games at all, they just aren't worth it to me and so I'd like to see them become relevant again.

With colony parts also providing fuel there are different possible combinations, and I'd also like to propose new colony parts and a re-organization of the current colony parts to reflect this if we adopt the idea. Currently my concept is as below:

PartColonistsFuel FactorGame Stage
Colony Pod11.5xStart
Duplicate Colony Pod31.5xEarly Game
Cryonic Colony Pod12xEarly Game
Stasis Colony Pod32xMid-Game

Fluff:
  • Colony Pod: This basic colony pod allows for the transport of colonists to a new planet, however life-support takes up significant space limiting the number of colonists.
  • Duplicate Colony Pod: This colony pod creates grows duplicates of colonists upon arrival allowing for a fully developed colony capable of producing new colonies of its own once the population reaches maturity.
  • Cryonic Colony Pod: This colony pod places colonists into cold storage allowing for much longer voyages with automated crews, but the cryogenic systems take up significant space.
  • Stasis Colony Pod: This colony pod uses stasis fields that allow for both mature and immature colonists to be transported safely to a new planet and allows for a fully developed colony to be established once the population matures.

Fell free to make alternative proposals for colony parts or how this should work, or even some other way to make colony pods relevant once again.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5405
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#2 Post by Vezzra »

labgnome wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:14 amThe general idea is that currently colony ships are too weak and using them is made almost completely irrelevant by the colony building. Having the colony parts boost fuel would allow colony ships to become a way to have them be much more useful in establishing colonies outside of your supply range.
Establishing colonies outside of supply range is the sole purpose of colony ships. As that's a special case (not the rule), this "marginalization" of the colony ship is actually intended.

However, if the recent changes to the fuel mechanic rendered the hulls you usually use for colony ships with too low out-of-supply travelling range, then that purpose is of course defeated, and some changes to provide colony ships with sufficient range to fulfill their purpose are probably necessary.

jinlanid
Space Squid
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:26 am

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#3 Post by jinlanid »

If it's more difficult to expand, then a system is more worthy.

What about nerfing outpost part, instead of buffing colony part?
For example, make it more expensive to upgrade an outpost to a colony than just make a colony.
Maybe cost more PP, or maybe make it slower cost more turns.

If you choose outpost solution, you can occupy the system faster.
If you choose colony solution, you get a new home faster.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5405
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#4 Post by Vezzra »

jinlanid wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:20 amWhat about nerfing outpost part, instead of buffing colony part?
For example, make it more expensive to upgrade an outpost to a colony than just make a colony.
That would defeat the very reason why colonizing by upgrading outposts had been introduced in the first place.

Originally you couldn't upgrade an outpost to a colony. Colonization was done solely with colony ships. However, that mechanic turned out to be very micromanagement heavy, especially past early game when you start to colonize more and more. The colonization mechanic we have now (build an outpost, upgrade it to a colony) has been introduced to resolve that issue.

Colony ships have been kept to keep the option of colonizing outside your supply range. That can't be done by upgrading outposts, so colony ships fill that specific, distinct role. IMO that's sufficient - colony ships don't necessarily need to be more important.

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#5 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:44 pm However, if the recent changes to the fuel mechanic rendered the hulls you usually use for colony ships with too low out-of-supply travelling range, then that purpose is of course defeated, and some changes to provide colony ships with sufficient range to fulfill their purpose are probably necessary.
I've now payed several games where there is not a suitable planet within range for my colony ship. Sometimes far outside my range. It's quite frustrating.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#6 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:46 pm I've now payed several games where there is not a suitable planet within range for my colony ship. Sometimes far outside my range. It's quite frustrating.
You can use outposts.

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#7 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:51 pm
labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:46 pm I've now payed several games where there is not a suitable planet within range for my colony ship. Sometimes far outside my range. It's quite frustrating.
You can use outposts.
Outposts need a supply connection. They're not a viable alternative here. I don't remember this problem before the new fuel system was introduced.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#8 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:57 pm Outposts need a supply connection. They're not a viable alternative here. I don't remember this problem before the new fuel system was introduced.
I mean outposting some planet along the way, to extend your supply or refuel colonies on the way to the one planet you want to colonize.

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#9 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:00 pm
labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:57 pm Outposts need a supply connection. They're not a viable alternative here. I don't remember this problem before the new fuel system was introduced.
I mean outposting some planet along the way, to extend your supply or refuel colonies on the way to the one planet you want to colonize.
That's still pretty pricey in the early game.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 1661
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:57 pm Outposts need a supply connection. They're not a viable alternative here. I don't remember this problem before the new fuel system was introduced.
Do you mean fuel efficiency? The usual suspect hulls (medium hull, organics, flux bubble) for colonisation have exactly the same effective fuel when mounting a colony pod as before (what a coincidence :lol: )
labgnome wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:14 am The general idea is that currently colony ships are too weak and using them is made almost completely irrelevant by the colony building. Having the colony parts boost fuel would allow colony ships to become a way to have them be much more useful in establishing colonies outside of your supply range. Currently I don't really use colony pods in my games at all, they just aren't worth it to me and so I'd like to see them become relevant again.
The general idea is that colonization using ships is much more micro-managy than colonisation via building/outpost. The colony pod is only left in the game because we need out-of-the-supply-colonisation as well. There is no need to make it more relevant. building/outpost vs pod should always be more cost effective.
labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:57 pm Outposts need a supply connection. They're not a viable alternative here. I don't remember this problem before the new fuel system was introduced.
Do you mean fuel efficiency? The usual suspect hulls (medium hull, organics, flux bubble) for colonisation have exactly the same effective fuel when mounting a colony pod as before (what a coincidence :lol: )
labgnome wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:14 am The general idea is that currently colony ships are too weak and using them is made almost completely irrelevant by the colony building. Having the colony parts boost fuel would allow colony ships to become a way to have them be much more useful in establishing colonies outside of your supply range. Currently I don't really use colony pods in my games at all, they just aren't worth it to me and so I'd like to see them become relevant again.
The general idea is that colonization using ships is much more micro-managy than colonisation via building/outpost. The colony pod is only left in the game because we need out-of-the-supply-colonisation as well. There is no need to make it more relevant. building/outpost vs pod should always be more cost effective.


Besides that thinking of options for making out-of-the-supply-colonisation less of a hassle is a good idea:

How about a refill ship influence project? You pay some fixed amount of IP to have a single ship set to maximum fuel. That is very expensive for refilling a normal ship, but for rare cases like building-outposts-along-the-way-is-taking-too-much-time-and-PP or this-scout-is-already-so-far-out-i-will-never-be-able-to-send-another-scout-there-in-time it might be worth it.

About extending reach for all outpost/colony ships (Not sure we want such a thing though):
Giving a flat +1 fuel if you add an outpost pod and +2 if you add a colony pod would also be an option for reducing hassle. Maybe even enhanced by supply tech). Or having a simple hull easily available where you can add fuel parts besides outpost pod (no-external-slot, 2 or 3 internal slots). Or having a policy which does this.


Besides that thinking of options for making out-of-the-supply-colonisation less of a hassle is a good idea:

How about a refill ship influence project? You pay some fixed amount of IP to have a single ship set to maximum fuel. That is very expensive for refilling a normal ship, but for rare cases like building-outposts-along-the-way-is-taking-too-much-time-and-PP or this-scout-is-already-so-far-out-i-will-never-be-able-to-send-another-scout-there-in-time it might be worth it.

About extending reach for all outpost/colony ships (Not sure we want such a thing though):
Giving a flat +1 fuel if you add an outpost pod and +2 if you add a colony pod would also be an option for reducing hassle (or fuel multiplier like you suggested). Maybe even enhanced by supply tech). Or having a simple hull easily available where you can add fuel parts besides outpost pod (no-external-slot, 2 or 3 internal slots). Or having a policy which does this.
labgnome wrote: Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:07 pm That's still pretty pricey in the early game.
That is maybe not what you want, but maybe that is OK. Please elaborate why that is not OK. Focus on reducing necessary management or enabling diversity of strategies.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

User avatar
labgnome
Juggernaut
Posts: 833
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#11 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:38 am Do you mean fuel efficiency? The usual suspect hulls (medium hull, organics, flux bubble) for colonisation have exactly the same effective fuel when mounting a colony pod as before (what a coincidence :lol: )
Yes I mean fuel efficiency.

They do not have the same effective fuel. The medium hull has 3 fuel with 200% efficiency. The Organic hull has 2 fuel and 200% efficiency. The flux bubble hull has 6 fuel and 400% efficiency.
How about a refill ship influence project? You pay some fixed amount of IP to have a single ship set to maximum fuel. That is very expensive for refilling a normal ship, but for rare cases like building-outposts-along-the-way-is-taking-too-much-time-and-PP or this-scout-is-already-so-far-out-i-will-never-be-able-to-send-another-scout-there-in-time it might be worth it.
I could see that maybe working, maybe with a time/cost scaling with distance from supply? My concern is that the project itself might become micromanagement.
About extending reach for all outpost/colony ships (Not sure we want such a thing though):
Giving a flat +1 fuel if you add an outpost pod and +2 if you add a colony pod would also be an option for reducing hassle (or fuel multiplier like you suggested). Maybe even enhanced by supply tech). Or having a simple hull easily available where you can add fuel parts besides outpost pod (no-external-slot, 2 or 3 internal slots). Or having a policy which does this.
I have a few thoughts on this:

Firstly, I do not think that outpost pods should get a fuel bonus. They are primarily for extending supply reach and building colonies inside of your supply.

Secondly, I think that boosting reach for colony ships both the simplest and most interesting solution to the problem.

Thirdly, I suggested a fuel multiplier to be more in-line with new changes to the fuel system and so that it doesn't become a better fuel tank for bad fuel efficiency ships. Though I could be wrong, because I don't totally get the new system itself.

Fourthly, I could see adding another internal slot to the flux bubble hull. However I don't know how that would effect balance.

Lastly, I could see this being done through a policy. However I don't know if that might be too much of a no-brainer for anyone playing Sly.
That is maybe not what you want, but maybe that is OK. Please elaborate why that is not OK. Focus on reducing necessary management or enabling diversity of strategies.
In addition to being costly early in the game it's micromanagement and a major obstacle to a distributed strategy.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

ThinkSome
Space Kraken
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#12 Post by ThinkSome »

Has anyone considered making the fuel part actually add measurable amounts of fuel capacity?

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#13 Post by Oberlus »

ThinkSome wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:00 pm Has anyone considered making the fuel part actually add measurable amounts of fuel capacity?
When average fuel capacity of hulls is around 2-3, adding 1 (or more when better techs are researched) is measurable.

wobbly
Pupating Mass
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#14 Post by wobbly »

Both the upgraded organic hulls have an extra internal slot to fit a fuel tank & any of the hulls with external slots fit a ram scoop, though I'm not sure how much a ram scoop gives having never used it.

ThinkSome
Space Kraken
Posts: 170
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:13 pm

Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#15 Post by ThinkSome »

AFAIK scoop is 0.3/turn when stationary.

Oberlus, 0.5 (which seems to be the default) per part is simply not reasonable when you only have 1-2 internal slots on early-mid game ships (when you need that stuff the most). Especially when you consider that small basic hull can do 8 jumps.

I propose making the fuel parts:
1) Better. at least +1 fuel default, +2 +3 ... on upgrades
2) More expensive. 5-10 PP, it could also become more expensive on upgrades or the "upgrades" could be separate parts altogether.
3) Add "External fuel tank" that goes into external slot and reduces ship's HP (they are fragile and prone to go boom, after all).

Post Reply