Influence and Species

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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labgnome
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Re: Influence and Species

#16 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:59 pm I guess B is Xenophobic, but current Xenophobic trait works differently, by proximity to other species. However, it's been always a source of balance problems (at least the xenophobic&self-sustaining combo), and it makes sense to rework it to operate over influence or stability rather than directly affecting production.
I second this.
I agree that hive-mind species and the like doesn't necessarily imply bad influence on other species. There is nothing that makes "individuals" species better than hive-mind species to understand other species. Some hive-mind species could be just charming and incredibly emotionally-intelligent, etc. why not?
I agree with this sentiment. However I do think that a lot of these ideas are overly complex, and maybe for now George should get average influence.
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LienRag
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Re: Influence and Species

#17 Post by LienRag »

labgnome wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:41 pm I'm not aware of any proposals for different internal and external influence. I am personally against the idea, as I think it would be confusing and overly complicated.
I personally like the idea but agree with you that it may not be KISS.
But you seem in favor of having different results for the specie that holds the Capitol and the species that do not, and it can be a good approximation imho, and a quite intuitive one also.
So basically Mu Urshes would be happy to live in a Mu Ursh empire but not really in the empire of another specie.
labgnome wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:41 pm I am not really familiar with the background for the Mu Ursh, so maybe they should just have average influence.
IIRC their version of non-violence is pre-emptively annihilating the potential threat...

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Re: Influence and Species

#18 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:20 am
labgnome wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:41 pm ...
But you seem in favor of having different results for the specie that holds the Capitol and the species that do not, and it can be a good approximation imho, and a quite intuitive one also.
+1

switching the capitol is easily possible, so the player can make a decision here. at lest when you are switching there would be a time of "anarchy" where you do not have a capitol. so there might be a difference between a species which does not like to be governed by another and a species which likes to govern.
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Vezzra
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Re: Influence and Species

#19 Post by Vezzra »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:59 pmI guess B is Xenophobic, but current Xenophobic trait works differently, by proximity to other species. However, it's been always a source of balance problems (at least the xenophobic&self-sustaining combo), and it makes sense to rework it to operate over influence or stability rather than directly affecting production.
I always considered the current xenophobic mechanic as a (rather crude) stop-gap solution until we can implement xenophobic species properly (by having the proper game mechanics for that). With colony IP costs and later species-species and species-empire relations we can design and implement a far more elegant and better model that what we have now.

So yes, what you describe here is the plan.

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Re: Influence and Species

#20 Post by Vezzra »

LienRag wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:25 pmMaybe if there's internal and external Influence as Vezzra proposed they can have good internal and bad external ?
Um, to clear up potential misunderstandings: I do not propose to actually do that (way to complicated) - I just said that unless if we do something like that, having species that e.g. are good at "internal" influence (stuff that affect/concern your own empire like colony maintenance etc.) and bad at "external" influence (influence stuff that affect/concern other empires/natives, e.g. influence projects convince native worlds to join your empire) will not be possible.

It's a con of worms I'd rather not open.

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Re: Influence and Species

#21 Post by Vezzra »

labgnome wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:29 pm I don't think that telepathic species should automatically get good influence. I especially don't think that non hive-mind telepathic species would be any better at holding an empire together than any other species.
Maybe not "automatically" (meaning "always"), but in most cases it makes sense that an empire comprised of individuals that are used to communicate telepathically are more effective at administration related things than non-telepaths. You can of course always come up with some fluff explanation why this or that telepathic species isn't better at administration than "normal" species (because of some deficiency in other areas that also contribute to how well you are at adminstration).

Same applies for hive-minds. Assuming all other things being equal, I'd expect a hive-mind to be vastly better at adminstrating and holding together their empire than everyone else - after all, they are essentially god-like present wherever their drones are. All the overhead you have when dealing with independent individuals which need to cooperate isn't necessary. But of course you can invent fluff explanations why they are not as good at adminstrating things like you'd expect them to be - George e.g. are described as a "child-like" entity IIRC? Well, that could mean that George isn't very organized, which of course doesn't exactly make you good at holding a large empire together... ;)

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Re: Influence and Species

#22 Post by Ophiuchus »

I see this as the fleshing out the fluff-reasoning for species. Which needs a either a rather stable fluff idea for what influence does or one accepts contradictions. Which means either a more generic fluff or a "list" of acceptable reasons for being good/bad at influence.

Anyway there needs to be a complete balance pass after we know what influence is worth.

Until influence projects arrive, having more influence means dealing with your own subjects and policies - for that "good at administration/providing stability" fits well. But I guess influence projects will also influence subjects out of your empire - there "being convincing/good at negotiations" could work. A generic fluff could be "good at organizing (population, institutions, secret services, relationships)".
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Re: Influence and Species

#23 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:24 pmMaybe not "automatically" (meaning "always"), but in most cases it makes sense that an empire comprised of individuals that are used to communicate telepathically are more effective at administration related things than non-telepaths. You can of course always come up with some fluff explanation why this or that telepathic species isn't better at administration than "normal" species (because of some deficiency in other areas that also contribute to how well you are at adminstration).
Maybe some Telepathic species could have an "Emphatic" trait, that kind-of works in the opposite way as Xenophobic, and gives an influence bonus to nearby alien species.
Same applies for hive-minds. Assuming all other things being equal, I'd expect a hive-mind to be vastly better at adminstrating and holding together their empire than everyone else - after all, they are essentially god-like present wherever their drones are. All the overhead you have when dealing with independent individuals which need to cooperate isn't necessary. But of course you can invent fluff explanations why they are not as good at adminstrating things like you'd expect them to be - George e.g. are described as a "child-like" entity IIRC? Well, that could mean that George isn't very organized, which of course doesn't exactly make you good at holding a large empire together... ;)
So for me the question isn't "would a hive-mind be good at holding an empire together", but "would George be good at holding an empire together", and there doesn't see to be a clear consensus on that one. Which is why I think that for now, George should get average influence.
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:47 amAnyway there needs to be a complete balance pass after we know what influence is worth.
Of course, this is only meant as a starting point.
Until influence projects arrive, having more influence means dealing with your own subjects and policies - for that "good at administration/providing stability" fits well. But I guess influence projects will also influence subjects out of your empire - there "being convincing/good at negotiations" could work. A generic fluff could be "good at organizing (population, institutions, secret services, relationships)".
I'd say that influence is about being good at communication and organization.
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