Empire Types - "Origins"

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#16 Post by Oberlus »

Combinations of two good traits don't look to me like strategies. Also, if origins are meant to allow for strategies when your traits don't help, all this would be pointless.

Tall vs wide
One would go for boosts to max population and growth speed, coupled with pop-based boosts to research/production, the other for cheap/fast colony/outpost parts and colony buildings, coupled with flat bonuses.
Current mechanics make it everyone go wide at start and both rest of game. That should be fixed somehow before we can talk of tall empires, so that slow expansion is a choice.
But anyways, turtling isn't a choice, you must conquer planets sooner or later and grow wide, so it seems to me there can be no tall-and-not-wide empire mid game, except the ones loosing.

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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#17 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:56 am Combinations of two good traits don't look to me like strategies. Also, if origins are meant to allow for strategies when your traits don't help, all this would be pointless.
Well the combinations themselves aren't strategies. My idea is that origins could "layer" traits on top of what species start off with. Perhaps with a restriction on how "good" playable species could be on any trait.

However I may have been thinking too specifically about strategies. Wide, Distributed, Tall, Exterminating and Hiding are probably sufficient for strategy types. I was also thinking of aiming for different victory conditions.
Tall vs wide
One would go for boosts to max population and growth speed, coupled with pop-based boosts to research/production, the other for cheap/fast colony/outpost parts and colony buildings, coupled with flat bonuses.
Current mechanics make it everyone go wide at start and both rest of game. That should be fixed somehow before we can talk of tall empires, so that slow expansion is a choice.
But anyways, turtling isn't a choice, you must conquer planets sooner or later and grow wide, so it seems to me there can be no tall-and-not-wide empire mid game, except the ones loosing.
With the tech victory going tall should be an option, and probably also for any diplomatic victory condition we introduce.
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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#18 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:02 pm However I may have been thinking too specifically about strategies. Wide, Distributed, Tall, Exterminating and Hiding are probably sufficient for strategy types. I was also thinking of aiming for different victory conditions.
...
With the tech victory going tall should be an option, and probably also for any diplomatic victory condition we introduce.
Choosing one of those without seeing the galaxy first strikes me as very odd.
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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#19 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:02 pmMy idea is that origins could "layer" traits on top of what species start off with.
Perhaps with a restriction on how "good" playable species could be on any trait.
Effectively making some sort of restricted (few options) species tunning system, do I get it right?
If that is the case, it doesn't seem like the Origins idea proposed by Vezzra.
Wide, Distributed, Tall, Exterminating and Hiding are probably sufficient for strategy types.
Wide(colonies)+Tall(pop boosts)+Exterminating(invasion), as a whole, is the dominant strategy for now in FreeOrion.
Tall without Wide isn't possible because how important is to have as many (big) colonies as possible. We do not have mechanics to allow for Tall+Narrow to via thing.
Wide+Tall+Distributed+Hiding is the other only alternative, only for early-mid game, then transition to Wide+Exterminating.
With the tech victory going tall should be an option, and probably also for any diplomatic victory condition we introduce.
It should be, but it isn't. There is no way to stay narrow and survive long enough, no matter how tall you are, the wide empires will be as tall (pop per planet) or more, and have more colonies ofc, so they can either reach tech victory or conquest you before you get there.

In the end, piling up species traits that do the same than the ones we already have won't change the lack of differentiated strategies, only tailor a bit the tactics.
We need new stuff.

For Tall vs Wide, we need ways to make few colonies grow much more (faster and bigger) than the colonies of the empires going wide.
For Pacifist vs Aggressive (Exterminating in your list), we need ways to boost survivality of empires that don't go the conquest route, via planetary defenses, bonus to defending fleets, and stuff that helps turtling. All this, BTW, fits well with Tall+Narrow.

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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#20 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:27 pmWide(colonies)+Tall(pop boosts)+Exterminating(invasion), as a whole, is the dominant strategy for now in FreeOrion.
Tall without Wide isn't possible because how important is to have as many (big) colonies as possible. We do not have mechanics to allow for Tall+Narrow to via thing.
Wide+Tall+Distributed+Hiding is the other only alternative, only for early-mid game, then transition to Wide+Exterminating.
I suppose I should have been more clear: Exterminating is meant to be the xenophobic strategy of wiping everyone else out. Not conquering and integrating them. That's why in my earlier post conquerors and exterminators were separate categories.
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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#21 Post by LienRag »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:34 pm Ok, I'll try to address the various questions and concerns that have been raised:

First, and most importantly, I think I need to clarify or state more clearly what the fundamental design goals of the proposals are:
  1. The decision about what kind of game I want to play/which fundamental strategy I want to play (peace loving tree huggers/bloodthirsty warmongers/mysterious stealthy empire hiding in the shadows of deep space/...) must not depend on the specific conditions of my starting position.
  2. Maintaining/getting back to FO's fundamental design decision of species!=empire, which means preventing to pack more and more things into species that actually are meant to provide the means to play a certain "type" of empire.
Ad 1.: Apparently that issue is worse than I thought, because some of the answers here indicate that your specific starting position/conditions dictate what kind of strategies you can employ to a very high degree. I haven't perceived the issue as that severe, but I haven't played a game myself in over two years, so I'll take your word for it.


Could you elaborate a bit about the species!=empire thing ?
I mean, I understand that one specie should be playable in a diverse manner, not having the initial Specie entirely determinate the gameplay (though playing Sly is a strong incentive to play hidden and disconnected empire, and it should stay that way imho). But it seems to me that wanting to play a specific Empire without adapting one's strategy to the initial specie (and the Galaxy topology, more so the one around the HomeWorld) is not what a strategy game should promote.
So, I can see how your Origins could be a way to have more diverse starts, but how do you plan to balance the Origin choice and the adaptation the player has to make to the initial situation ? The later is important, it shouldn't be rendered moot by the Origin...
I mean, there is the game one wants to play, and then there is the game he has to play in order to make the most of what's available (natives, Homeworld, specials, choke points, etc.) - it's the dialectic between these which makes the game interesting.

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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#22 Post by Vezzra »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:21 amI think the main idea here should be "easily achievable iff specialising". So it would be great if empire could grow into its role.
That most certainly should remain/be possible - but that can only work to a certain extend. The Origin mechanic is supposed to provide the prerequisites for strategies an empire cannot grow into, but has to be able to implement right from game start (or very quickly, within the first few turns).
The player should make significant choices along the way which removes options (or makes those options more expensive). There could be also a starting decision involved (e.g. choosing your first tech theme).
Agreed. The Origin mechanic should not prevent that.
Building a standard Sly empire should be a valid option. Playing a hidden peaceful Egassem-only empire does not necessarily have to be a valid option.
Agreed. I already pointed that out myself when I said that not all species need to be compatible with all origins. Making all possible combinations equally viable options woud be an impossible design goal to meet anyway.
I think it would be good if there was a path for a standard empire to becoming a hidden distributed empire
Unless you have a very different idea than me what a "hidden distributed" empire is supposed to be, that isn't possible, at least not unless we radically change some fundamental game mechanics. You can't become a hidden distributed emipre, you have to be one right from start.
at the moment that means acquiring some well-hidden species which is possible after spending 250RP for getting active detection and lighthouse. The balancing should allow a good-research species to go down that road (and i guess that is currently possible).
That only makes it possible to play an empire which tries to employ stealth strategies. A truly hidden distributed empire is far more than that.
Maybe what we need here is some more hidden colonising natives to give that option
A truly hidden distributed empire can only use stealthy species, and a significant part of that stealthy species also need to be good stockpilers. Better yet, only use species that are both good at stealth and stockpiling.

That's an extremely difficult/unlikely combination to acquire quickly enough to pursue the hidden distributed empire strategy if you don't already start with a species (and/or an Origin) that provides all the requirements right away.
Also in balancing one needs to consider not only species, but species-origins combinations (so #species*#origins instead of #species).
Of course, although that only needs to be done for combinations we want to be a viable option. A hidden peaceful Egassem-only empire, as you pointed out yourself above, does not need to be a viable option.

Aside from that, everything we add we add because we want to add more options/interesting choices for players. And everything we add that increases the options/possibilities will be additional stuff we need to balance. The Origin mechanic is no exception to that rule.
We currently have no specific strategies besides hidden distributed empire stated.
That doesn't mean there couldn't/shouldn't be more. If the Origin mechanic makes more of such strategies possible, I'd consider that a good thing.
Also the tech reorganisation into themes would achieve something similar.
Techs need to be researched, it takes time to unlock all the things provided by techs. That's perfect for things we want empires to be able to grow into, but useless for strategies empires can't grow into.
Also AI is totally unprepared for any strong different starting position approach
The Origin mechanic in particular is very AI friendly - all we have to do is provide a "default" Origin option which basically equals the current game start conditions, and you don't need AI adaptions at all, not right away. The AI can start employing the other Origins when some AI programmer gets around to implement the proper AI handling for additional Origins.

The addition of Influence, policies and colony upkeep will be a by far bigger issue for the AI. These are fundamental new mechanics which change gameplay completely, and the AI can't handle at all. I expect the necessary changes to the AI to be substantial. Right now the AI must be basically broken, unless there has been done at least some basic work to make the AI capable to handle the most essential management of Influence etc.
I think a generic discussion of choosable starting packs is premature.
Sure. Before we start discussing what Origins we want, we need to discuss if we want to adopt the idea at all, and how Origins should work.

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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#23 Post by Vezzra »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:03 pmFor me it keeps being species traits and policies with steps: instead of picking it at game start and bound to the starting species, or during game and affecting the whole empire via policies, you get it at game start and affecting the whole empire.
I don't understand the "with steps" statement in this context, but aside from that, yes, this a a good summary of what Origins should provide.

The first two things we already have, Origins would provide the third possibility we currently lack (something that you get at game start and affects your empire, but is not bound to the starting species). And IMO we need that third possibility as much as we need the first two (none of the three can cover what the other two can, each of them have their purpose and place).

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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#24 Post by Vezzra »

labgnome wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:02 pmMy idea is that origins could "layer" traits on top of what species start off with. Perhaps with a restriction on how "good" playable species could be on any trait.
That's not really what I had in mind. Origins are supposed to provide certain "starting conditions", basically meaning giving you certain stuff at the start of the game.

In a way we already have that, you just can't select from a set of different options, there is only one "Origin": all the starting stuff you currently get at game start. Which encompasses the pre-unlocked techs and policies, your starting fleets and buildings.

Origins would mostly be a list of different sets of stuff you start with, which would just be an additional option at game setup.

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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#25 Post by Vezzra »

LienRag wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:56 pmCould you elaborate a bit about the species!=empire thing ?
I mean, I understand that one specie should be playable in a diverse manner, not having the initial Specie entirely determinate the gameplay
I think it's a bit more than that. Because what you say here applies to most 4X space games - the initial species should not determine the entire gameplay completely. FO goes a bit farther than that: species are only an asset of the empire, nothing more.

Currently that goes so far as that's it's basically irrelevant which species is on the capital. Functionally, there is no "ruling"/"main"/"dominant"/whatever species. You don't play a "Human", "Trith", "Laenfa", "Sly" empire. You can, in theory, very quickly discard your starting species and continue to mainly use a native species you found early on, to the point where you can completely wipe out your starting species (by Evacuation/CC). Your empire would stay the "same", so to speak, even if it's comprised of a completely different species.

While most other 4X space games offer you the option to incorporate other species into your empire, I don't know any that go to these extremes as FO does.
(though playing Sly is a strong incentive to play hidden and disconnected empire, and it should stay that way imho).
Depends. Sly is a species that you'd probably want to choose if you want to play a stealthy supply disconnected empire, BUT: it should NOT be the ONLY species with which that's possible. There should be other species (e.g. Laenfa) which should also be a viable option when trying to play stealthy/disconnected. And Sly should NOT be good ONLY for stealthy/disconnected.

Not every species can be a viable option for all strategies, sure. But no strategy should be playable with only one species, and no species should be good for only one strategy.
But it seems to me that wanting to play a specific Empire without adapting one's strategy to the initial specie (and the Galaxy topology, more so the one around the HomeWorld) is not what a strategy game should promote.
Of course, agreed. Otherwise the choice of starting species (or having species at all) would be pointless. And having to adapt to your surroundings is important, otherwise having different starting conditions/surroundings would be pointless.

But having to adapt your strategy to your surroundings is a very different thing from having your surroundings dictate/restrict your selection of fundamental strategies you can pursue.
So, I can see how your Origins could be a way to have more diverse starts, but how do you plan to balance the Origin choice and the adaptation the player has to make to the initial situation ? The later is important, it shouldn't be rendered moot by the Origin...
The same way you have to balance the playable species so all of them work reasonably well with all possible starting positions/conditions.
I mean, there is the game one wants to play, and then there is the game he has to play in order to make the most of what's available (natives, Homeworld, specials, choke points, etc.) - it's the dialectic between these which makes the game interesting.
Again, agreed. See above, it just needs the right balance of how restricting the "what's available" stuff can be.

Bascially I mean the following: Today I want to try playing a stealthy supply disconnected empire. These need very specific prerequistes to be a viable option. I most definitely do not want to have to start over the game several times after playing maybe 20-30 turns because my starting positions turned out to be not suitable for playing that type of game, before I get a map and starting location that works.

That's a big, fat no-go. A design flaw of epic proportions.

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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#26 Post by Ophiuchus »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:26 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:21 amat the moment that means acquiring some well-hidden species which is possible after spending 250RP for getting active detection and lighthouse. The balancing should allow a good-research species to go down that road (and i guess that is currently possible).
That only makes it possible to play an empire which tries to employ stealth strategies. A truly hidden distributed empire is far more than that.
That certainly depends on the definition-i think "truly" does not matter much-strategies are not about purity. For me a hidden distributed empire is one which is in the position to have a quite a proportion of its assets in foreign terrain - it is completely fine to have a connected homeland for PP production. Stockpile has tech and focus options. Also after the flat bonus nerf putting the distributed planets to research does not create so much PP in the stockpile anymore.
Vezzra wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:26 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:21 amAlso the tech reorganisation into themes would achieve something similar.
Techs need to be researched, it takes time to unlock all the things provided by techs. That's perfect for things we want empires to be able to grow into, but useless for strategies empires can't grow into.
Not quite sure i dont understand what you mean :D

I meant techs should provide a way to specialize/commit on a strategy. And you would not research useless tech which doesnt fit your strategy.
Vezzra wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:26 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:21 amAlso AI is totally unprepared for any strong different starting position approach
The Origin mechanic in particular is very AI friendly - all we have to do is provide a "default" Origin option which basically equals the current game start conditions, and you don't need AI adaptions at all, not right away.

The addition of Influence, policies and colony upkeep will be a by far bigger issue for the AI.
Origins do not make any difference there. Now we provide a "default" strategy. And we should make the switch to utility based research vs playbooks.
I do not see why having influence being a huge AI problem making origins less of a AI problem.

Influence update means it takes even more time to get around and implement anything for origins. I dont see how origins gives much bang for the bucks.
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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#27 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:26 pm
Maybe what we need here is some more hidden colonising natives to give that option
A truly hidden distributed empire can only use stealthy species, and a significant part of that stealthy species also need to be good stockpilers. Better yet, only use species that are both good at stealth and stockpiling.

That's an extremely difficult/unlikely combination to acquire quickly enough to pursue the hidden distributed empire strategy if you don't already start with a species (and/or an Origin) that provides all the requirements right away.
Currently, impossible to come by to my knowledge. I've said it before, and I'll say it now, we need more native species. I tried posting something over here to try to get people engaged with the idea. Maybe doing a more asking what we need would be a better approach. As such I have started a thread on the topic here.
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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#28 Post by Oberlus »

Going with the flow of the Origins idea.

As I understood it, Origins are a sort of empire-wide (not species) traits.
They could be special "imperial traits" that can't be acquired except at game start, but that seems awkward, hard to explain why other empires can't get the same through research. So I think Vezzra's idea of making them as techs unlocked at start is the way to go.


The most obvious Origin would be the one that eases up life for hidden distributed empires:
Grant Electromagneting Dampening (100 RP), unlocked by Active Radar (100 RP), allows to use from start the +20 stealth ship part and halves RP cost of Planetary Cloud Cover (100 RP down from 200 RP).
This allows for early hidden planets and ships, but do not help the empire to stick to the hidden strategy, that will require huge investment on the detection and stealth parts techs and/or the planetary stealth techs. But that's maybe the only need, that bump at start, since the early pacific expansion, without having to devote PP to armed ships, might be enough to put this empire among the ones expanding faster.


For Exterminator empires (which are not a thing actually), maybe unlocking Bombardment (200 RP), but we already have Xenophobic species with Concentration Camps, which are much more effective than bombardment.
Maybe Concentration Camps should be granted to empires picking up that Origin, and separated from the xenophobic trait.

For Loving empires that enjoy having multiple species and giving them all a good life, there is a Diversity policy that they could get from start. But that is not helpful until they get 3 more species, so maybe they get from start a native species in their starting system, or one next to it.


For Militaristic empires, something that reduces ship influence upkeep, or construction cost. And extra military ships at start. Maybe just one troop ship.

For Pacifist empires, something that increases their planetary defenses and their ability to perform actions (projects) that help them repel/discourage militaristic offensives. Not a thing until we have influence projects, to enable peaceful "conquest", cultural domination, non-militaristic acquisition of enemy worlds, that sort of things.


For Diplomatic empires, since we don't have mechanics for efficiency at diplomacy (it is just "hey, you wanna ally me? yes? no? ok then"), I can't imagine anything.


For Tall empires (again not a thing currently), I can't find a proper tech to grant. It should be something that allows for faster and greater growth of few planets. Probably one or several social policies that boosts population target meter and growth rate of good/adequate planets, and a social slot from start to apply them. That tech for 3-pop colonies could also be a good candidate, if accompanied with some sort of influence malus per colony.

For Wide empires, a policy or tech that reduces influence cost of colonies.


Do we want Origins for anti-hidden empires? (Prying empires)

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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#29 Post by labgnome »

So I have been thinking about the building angle, and basically about taking some of the effects of the imperial palace and splitting them up into separate buildings so we can pick-and-choose our starting setup. In addition, we can add other buildings to the possible starting configuration to produce different effects.
  • Imperial Palace: local bonus to *supply, *population, *stockpile, infrastructure and detection
  • Shipyard: constructs and repairs ships
  • Defense Nexus: local malus to stealth, local bonus to troops, defense and stability
  • Signal Dampener: empire-wide bonus to stealth, local bonus to troops, defense and stability
  • SETI Institute: empire-wide flat bonus to detection and defense, empire-wide number-of-species-based bonus troops and stability
  • Psi-Temple: empire-wide bonus to detection, troops, defense and stability
  • Think Tank: empire-wide focus-dependent flat and local focus-independent pop-based bonus to industry, research and influence
  • Cultural Archives: focus-independent empire-wide flat bonus to industry, research and influence
  • Information Web: focus-independent empire-wide pop-based bonus to industry, research and influence
  • Privateer Nest: local focus-independent flat bonus to industry, research and influence, empire-wide focus-dependent flat malus to industry, research and influence of other species
  • Spaceport: empire-wide bonus to supply, empire-wide malus to population and stockpile
  • Housing Complex: empire-wide bonus to population, empire-wide malus to supply and stockpile
  • Distribution Center: empire-wide bonus to stockpile, empire-wide malus to supply and population
Balanced Origin: Imperial Palace, Shipyard, Defense Nexus, Think Tank

Wide Origin: Imperial Palace, Shipyard, Defense Nexus, Cultural Archives, Spaceport

Tall Origin: Imperial Palace, Shipyard, Defense Nexus, Information Web, Housing Complex
- Also gets tech for Subterranean Habitation

Distributed Origin: Imperial Palace, Shipyard, Signal Dampener, Think Tank, Distribution Center
- Also gets tech for Spatial Flux Bubble Hull, Generic Supplies and Radiation Absorbing

Integrator Origin: Imperial Palace, Shipyard, SETI Institute, Cultural Archives

Exterminator Origin: Imperial Palace, Shipyard, Defense Nexus, Privateer Nest
- Also gets tech for Concentration Camps and Bombardment

**Psionic Origin: Imperial Palace, Shipyard, Psi-Temple, Think Tank

*Enough to negate empire-wide malus of Spaceport, Housing Complex and Distribution Center.
**Telepathic species only.
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Re: Empire Types - "Origins"

#30 Post by Vezzra »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:26 pmThat certainly depends on the definition-i think "truly" does not matter much-strategies are not about purity.
I beg to differ. Playing a "traditional" empire which (by whatever means) gains the ability to stealthily expand into other empires space is very different from playing an empire which tries to stay completely undetected, so that other empires don't know anything about the stealthy empire at all.
For me a hidden distributed empire is one which is in the position to have a quite a proportion of its assets in foreign terrain - it is completely fine to have a connected homeland for PP production.
Then our understanding about what a hidden distributed (or stealthy supply disconnected) empire is, is quite different.

What you describe is, in my eyes, just a "normal" or "traditional" empire that has the ability to stealthily expand into other empires space. While such an empire still suffers from the issues Oberlus described to a certain degree, it doesn't so nearly as badly as an empire that tries to stay undetected/undiscovered completely. And in this particular case (the "partially" hidden empire I mean) it is probably a good thing that being able to expand stealthily (in addition to being able to maintain a "normal"/"traditional" territory) requires high costs, otherwise such an empire would quickly become overpowered.
Not quite sure i dont understand what you mean :D

I meant techs should provide a way to specialize/commit on a strategy. And you would not research useless tech which doesnt fit your strategy.
Oh, ok. I thought you meant that just pursueing a certain research strategy could achieve the same as what I try to do with the Origin idea.

But if this is just about how research can/should be used specialize on/commit to/refine a strategy, then yes, of course.
Now we provide a "default" strategy.
Well, of course. There needs to be an option that represents a "neutral"/"not specialized" starting setup, more or less comprising of the setup you currently get at game start. The same way Humans are the "neutral"/"default" species which do not have any significant specialization.
I do not see why having influence being a huge AI problem making origins less of a AI problem.
Origins aren't much of an AI problem completely independent of how much of an AI problem the introduction Influence&Co are. I only wanted to point out that if we introduce something that will require significant effort to make the AI able to handle it, why complain about something that will cause only very minor issues for the AI at worst (if at all)?
I dont see how origins gives much bang for the bucks.
Origins are only supposed to alleviate some issues and introduce a bit more variety at game start. As a mechanic it is very simple and, I expect, easy to implement. So, the investment (the amount of "bucks") isn't that huge, while the benefits (the "bang") should be good enough.

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