Gaps in Native Species

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labgnome
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Gaps in Native Species

#1 Post by labgnome »

So currently we have a need for good/great stealth and stockpiling colonizing natives in the game as pointed out here. Another gap I see is a lack of good/great attack troop natives that can build ships. Right now only Ugmors have good attack troops. I don't know if there are any other noticeable gaps in native species that we should cover as well. As such I am proposing here a list of 11 species that cover those gaps.
  • Species 1: good stealth, good stockpiling, can build ships, can colonize
  • Species 2: great stealth, good stockpiling, can build ships, can colonize
  • Species 3: good stealth, great stockpiling, can build ships, can colonize
  • Species 4: good stealth, can build ships, can colonize
  • Species 5: good stockpiling, can build ships, can colonize
  • Species 6: great stealth, cannot build ships, can colonize
  • Species 7: great stockpiling, can build ships, can colonize
  • Species 8: good attack troops, good defense troops, can build ships, can colonize
  • Species 9: great attack troops, great defense troops, can build ships, can colonize
  • Species 10: good attack troops, can build ships, cannot colonize
  • Species 11: great attack troops, can build ships, cannot colonize
For Species 1 I am thinking a toned down version of the Laenfa so probably phototrophic with ocean preference, like Ugmors are to Egassem. Maybe also give them bad influence.

For Species 2 and Species 3 I am thinking of having them at opposite thirds of the habitability wheel from Species 1 and the Laenfa, so probably inferno and tundra preference. Maybe give one bad industry and the other bad research. Possibly give them both bad supply. For the inferno species I am thinking something that hides out in lava-tubes. For the tundra species I am thinking something that can burrow like a lemming.

For Species 4 and Species 5 I am thinking that they should be adjacent to Species 1 and the Laenfa on the habitability wheel, so probably terran and swamp preference. Probably something that hides out in the swamps for Species 4 and some kind of communal society for Species 5.

For Species 6 and Species 7 I am thinking that they should be on the far side of the habitability wheel from Species 1 and the Laenfa, so probably barren and radiated preference.

For Species 8 and Species 9 I am thinking that they should be at opposite thirds of the habitability wheel from Ugmors and Egassem, so probably ocean and tundra preference. I am thinking a species of "warbots" for the tundra planet and a species of fearsome crustaceans for the ocean planet.

For Species 10 and Species 11 I am thinking that they should be adjacent to Ugmors and Egassem, so probably radiated and toxic preference. Probably both lithic metabolism.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#2 Post by Geoff the Medio »

I'd rather remove a few species than add more at this point... It's more important that they're interesting and distinctive than that a matrix of traits is filled out.

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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#3 Post by labgnome »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:14 pm I'd rather remove a few species than add more at this point...
I couldn't disagree more. We're already in a bad enough spot with starting species determining your play-style. Not to mention seeing the same native species over and over again in the game. More species can only be a good thing.
It's more important that they're interesting and distinctive than that a matrix of traits is filled out.
This is addressing a very real need mentioned by people here on the forum. Species in the game are just as much about balance as they are about the story or flavor.
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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:14 pm I'd rather remove a few species than add more at this point... It's more important that they're interesting and distinctive than that a matrix of traits is filled out.
+1 to "it's more important that they're interesting and distinctive than that a matrix of traits is filled out".
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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#5 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:37 pm This is addressing a very real need mentioned by people here on the forum.
What need?

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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#6 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:35 pm So currently we have a need for good/great stealth and stockpiling colonizing natives in the game as pointed out here.
What's pointed out in Vezzra's linked thread is not the lack of stealth&stockpile species to enable the distributed hidden strategy, but the fact that starting species defines the (in)ability to follow the distributed hidden empire strategy, and using that strategy only as an example. It's not about adding species, it's about adding/improving mechanics to allow for more strategies regardless of starting species, what is called "species is not (shouldn't be) equal to empire" (AFAIK).

Adding native species good for a given strategy in order to enable such strategies when your starting species is not good at it is not the way to solve the problem, but only a patch.
What if that species doesn't spawn in your vecinity? What if you already picked a playable species good for that strategy?


Adding more distinct playable species and native species is something that I want. Even not so distinct species, just for the sake of having more species in games with many players. But lets not confuse things up.

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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:45 am Adding more distinct playable species and native species is something that I want. Even not so distinct species, just for the sake of having more species in games with many players. But lets not confuse things up.
I think both of you are painting in too broad strokes here.

Of course we solve balance/mechanical problems also with using the right mix of content (as you just tried with exobots and the flat bonus nerfs).
Of course you are right that solving this for a broad range of content is better than only for one certain mix.
Adding some species which help with that situation is a valid move but does not mean we should add generic species for the sake of filling gaps.

So I think we should add some distinct "dark forest" type of native species (which try to hide because they are afraid of being conquered). I think it would be ok for game balance if those species were quite common. For balancing those could be rather mediocre. That means in many games you would simply ignore those hidden planets until they show up naturally.
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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#8 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:58 amOf course we solve balance/mechanical problems also with using the right mix of content (as you just tried with exobots and the flat bonus nerfs).
Of course you are right that solving this for a broad range of content is better than only for one certain mix.
Adding some species which help with that situation is a valid move but does not mean we should add generic species for the sake of filling gaps.
So I should elaborate. My intent was to stimulate discussion on more native species, particularly in these areas where native species are currently weak. While I don't feel that every species needs to be a "special snowflake", I also do not want merely "generic" species either. I am sorry if I gave that impression. My hope was that in stimulating discussion about these gaps would foster collaborative efforts to flesh out the species around the scaffolding of the initial traits presented. I had hoped my suggestions would be a starting place for us to create stories for these species together. Unfortunately I neglected to communicate this, and that is on me.
So I think we should add some distinct "dark forest" type of native species (which try to hide because they are afraid of being conquered). I think it would be ok for game balance if those species were quite common. For balancing those could be rather mediocre. That means in many games you would simply ignore those hidden planets until they show up naturally.
I like this idea. That's why I proposed multiple species with those traits. Do you think that they are enough, or should there be more?
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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#9 Post by labgnome »

Another gap that occurs to me is the lack of good species for a "tall" strategy. As a tall empire will need species with good/great populations and good/great outputs.
As you will be playing tall, I am thinking that these should all be planet-bound species as tall empires will not be expanding as much, and to balance them out.

Tall-Play Species
  • Species 12: great population, good industry, can build ships, cannot colonize
  • Species 13: great population, good research, can build ships, cannot colonize
  • Species 14: great population, good influence, can build ships, cannot colonize
  • Species 15: good population, great industry, can build ships, cannot colonize
  • Species 16: good population, great research, can build ships, cannot colonize
  • Species 17: good population, great influence, can build ships, cannot colonize
For Species 12 I am thinking maybe robotic metabolism and desert preference, as desert planets were neglected in my last go-through. Suggestions for fluff are eusocial robots/robotic termites. Maybe with a central factory-queen that cannot be moved from the planet.

For Species 13 and Species 14 I am thinking terran and tundra preference, with organic metabolism for the terran and robotic metabolism for the tundra. For fluff for the terran preference species I am thinking maybe giant rapid-breeding rodents with super-tight family ties. For fluff for the tundra preference species I am thinking of robots that take advantage of the temperature to have superconducting processors that only work in the extreme cold of their homeworld.

For Species 15 I am thinking robotic metabolism and toxic preference. For fluff I am thinking giant mobile factories, that polluted their planet into its current state.

For Species 16 and Species 17 I am thinking radiated and swamp preference, with lithic metabolism for the radiated and phototrophic metabolism for the swamp. For fluff for the radiated preference species I am thinking something that eats radioactive minerals to get energy, perhaps relying on something super-rare like Technetium. For fluff for the swamp preference species I am thinking something like sentient mangrove trees, that are a planet-spanning network.

For all of these species I am thinking bad supply and bad stockpiling.
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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#10 Post by labgnome »

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:35 pmFor Species 1 I am thinking a toned down version of the Laenfa so probably phototrophic with ocean preference, like Ugmors are to Egassem. Maybe also give them bad influence.
Thinking about them for a while I imagine them as highly individualistic intelligent lily-pads.
For Species 2 and Species 3 I am thinking of having them at opposite thirds of the habitability wheel from Species 1 and the Laenfa, so probably inferno and tundra preference. Maybe give one bad industry and the other bad research. Possibly give them both bad supply. For the inferno species I am thinking something that hides out in lava-tubes. For the tundra species I am thinking something that can burrow like a lemming.
For the lava-tube hiders I was thinking something worm-like or serpentine. For the tundra burrowers I am thinking maybe lots of legs like a pill-bug.
For Species 4 and Species 5 I am thinking that they should be adjacent to Species 1 and the Laenfa on the habitability wheel, so probably terran and swamp preference. Probably something that hides out in the swamps for Species 4 and some kind of communal society for Species 5.
For the swamp preference species I am also thinking like a nocturnal feline-primate, something skittish, good at climbing and with huge eyes. For the terran preference species I am thinking maybe highly evolved pack-rat pachyderms.
For Species 6 and Species 7 I am thinking that they should be on the far side of the habitability wheel from Species 1 and the Laenfa, so probably barren and radiated preference.
For the barren preference species I am thinking something possibly robotic metabolism, and for the radiated preference species something possibly lithic metabolism. For the robotic species I was thinking maybe Species 7 and giving them strong resource management protocols. For the lithic species I was thinking Species 6 and giving them mineralized radiation shielding that also hides them from sensors.
For Species 8 and Species 9 I am thinking that they should be at opposite thirds of the habitability wheel from Ugmors and Egassem, so probably ocean and tundra preference. I am thinking a species of "warbots" for the tundra planet and a species of fearsome crustaceans for the ocean planet.
For the "warbots" I am basically thinking not just war-machines that possibly took-out their creators but a warrior-culture, sort-of robo-Klingons. For the crustaceans I was thinking something like highly territorial pistol-shrimp, that like to go out and conquer new territory.
For Species 10 and Species 11 I am thinking that they should be adjacent to Ugmors and Egassem, so probably radiated and toxic preference. Probably both lithic metabolism.
I changed my mind on the radiated preference species and think that they should be self-sustaining metabolism, and require the unique radiation fields of their planet to sustain themselves. The toxic preference species I was thinking something that relies on the corrosive acids in its native atmosphere to digest minerals.
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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#11 Post by Oberlus »

Floating vines and and lily pads, with similar traits. Way too similar.

Feline primate. Like the Raaargh? Also, feline/primates that hide in he swamps. In the trees of the swamps? Not convincing.

Pachyderms remember me of Hhhoh.


Warbots? Battlebots (R) :lol:

The territorial crustaceans sounds great. But give them also some kind of "hands", you can't build space ships with piston pincers.


When you say "for species X I was thinking they should be adjacent/opositise environment to species Y", what's the reasoning?

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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#12 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:34 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:58 amSo I think we should add some distinct "dark forest" type of native species (which try to hide because they are afraid of being conquered). I think it would be ok for game balance if those species were quite common. For balancing those could be rather mediocre. That means in many games you would simply ignore those hidden planets until they show up naturally.
I like this idea. That's why I proposed multiple species with those traits.
I think you only proposed trait combinations (and some rough sketches in the last post). You did not propose even one species here.

Flesh it out, make it interesting and unique and then look where to fit it in and which traits are the right ones (of course you can aim for a perceived gap).
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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#13 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:06 amFloating vines and and lily pads, with similar traits. Way too similar.
I mean they're completely different-looking and also lack the Laenfa's hive-mind. They would be big and round while the Laenfa are long and slender. Also I am thinking that their individualism would also make them more paranoid and less sneaky. I mean really all they have in common is they are both water dwelling plants. I was also thinking that they could have big flowers on top that are pollinated by seabirds. Each individual would have an "estate" and when they die the neighboring related lillypads would compete for portions of it. Those who don't hold onto their estates must seek out new territory or get starved-out by their neighbors.
Feline primate. Like the Raaargh? Also, feline/primates that hide in he swamps. In the trees of the swamps? Not convincing.
Maybe something more sloth-like with camouflaged fur hosting symbiotic algae?
Pachyderms remember me of Hhhoh.
I was thinking of using the big-eared/elephant bipedal-09 icon for them.
Warbots? Battlebots (R) :lol:
I had honestly forgotten that was a thing. What about Klangkorz for a name?
The territorial crustaceans sounds great. But give them also some kind of "hands", you can't build space ships with piston pincers.

Of course. They can have two sets of pincers, one for weapons, and one for manipulation.
When you say "for species X I was thinking they should be adjacent/opositise environment to species Y", what's the reasoning?
Mostly as a way to distribute them around the wheel of habitability while following some pattern.
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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#14 Post by drkosy »

I miss a species that have good / great research that can colonize planets. At the moment I just can remember "Happybirthday" and "Cray" for that, which are both robotic. With some luck you maybe catch "Kilandow" out of ancient ruins. On the other hand for production you have "Ugmors", "Kobuntura" and "Tae Ghirus" with very different metabolism.
As I like to play with natives set to medium, for me its always a good idea to start with some non productive species because you meet good producers fast enough. That is why I would like to see more research related natives.
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Re: Gaps in Native Species

#15 Post by wobbly »

Back when Scyllor were natives they were quite unbalancing for races like Egassam which have the production to spam colonies & the offensive troops to take them quickly. Didn't help that they were at opposite ends of the planet spectrum. I'd suggest if good researching colonizers are being added in that they at least have narrow planet tolerance to stop them being spammed by production races.

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