Make terraforming (and perhaps GAIA transform) cheaper

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ThinkSome
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Make terraforming (and perhaps GAIA transform) cheaper

#1 Post by ThinkSome »

Right now it is 100 * habitable size weighted with some factors, meaning that you are looking at ~300 PP to terraform a medium planet one step, which increases population by 6 or so. After the recent nerf to bonus, that means that it takes 72 turns to pay off at late game 0.7PP per population! This is unacceptable.

I propose that it is made much cheaper, let's say 30* habitable size, which would make it pay off in 25 turns (Gas gen+5 usually pays off in 20 turns for one planet, microgravity ind+2 40 turns for one planet). It can be made to take longer, e.g. 12-15 turns for one teraforming step.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Make terraforming (and perhaps GAIA transform) cheaper

#2 Post by Geoff the Medio »

How about

Code: Select all

    buildcost = 100 * (1 - 0.4 * Statistic If condition = EmpireHasAdoptedPolicy empire = Source.Owner name = "PLC_TERRAFORMING")
                    * (Target.HabitableSize * (1 + Target.DistanceFromOriginalType) ) * [[BUILDING_COST_MULTIPLIER]]
                    * (1 + 2 * Statistic If condition = EmpireHasAdoptedPolicy empire = Source.Owner name = "PLC_ENVIRONMENTALISM")

ThinkSome
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Re: Make terraforming (and perhaps GAIA transform) cheaper

#3 Post by ThinkSome »

People are already complaining that one has to be a walking encyclopedia to play FO. Making the formulas even more unreadable and throwing in policies will just make it even less accessible to newbies.

Even after 1.5 multiplayer longturn games I have to browse the source and test things in singleplayer. Not to mention that my much more experienced allies don't know what will happen, either. Also, that ally invasion thing totally wasn't working as expected (planet falling into one of our hands) and 16 troops were just lost to thin air as a result.

Make things simpler and more explained.

ThinkSome
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Re: Make terraforming (and perhaps GAIA transform) cheaper

#4 Post by ThinkSome »

Sorry, I just had to vent.

Reading the formula, it seems that it only gets 40% cheaper if the empire has the terraforming policy? Even with that it'd be too expensive I'm afraid. 42 turns to make cost for a medium planet?


Hmm, I have a poor medium planet that shows -6, but then I have +3 for XenoGen, And the good environment bonus is +9 on good mediums. So the gain would be actually +12?

100 * (1-0.4) * 3 = 180
12 * 0.7 = 8.4 PP
180 PP / 8.4 PP = 21.4 turns

This is actually good.

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Oberlus
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Re: Make terraforming (and perhaps GAIA transform) cheaper

#5 Post by Oberlus »

ThinkSome wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:45 pm People are already complaining that one has to be a walking encyclopedia to play FO.
I've heard that quite a lot lately. In every occasion it was ThinkSome who said it, quoting some unknown friends.
Even after 1.5 multiplayer longturn games I have to browse the source and test things in singleplayer.
You are referring to things like turn phase processing or if fighters will resupply when sending the carrier out of supply on the same turn.
Not to mention that my much more experienced allies don't know what will happen, either.
Nor really care that much. In your situation, I did wait for the resupply or attacked knowing I wouldn't need it. You instead get paralyzed by intense perfectionism and need to know what will happen exactly before issuing any order. That's fine, but not really mainstream.
Make things simpler and more explained.
Sure. Patches are welcome.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Make terraforming (and perhaps GAIA transform) cheaper

#6 Post by Geoff the Medio »

ThinkSome wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:45 pmMaking the formulas even more unreadable and throwing in policies will just make it even less accessible to newbies.
The FOCS is not supposed to be readable by players.
ThinkSome wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:01 pm...it seems that it only gets 40% cheaper if the empire has the terraforming policy? Even with that it'd be too expensive I'm afraid. 42 turns to make cost for a medium planet?
Are there no other benefits than more production from doing terraforming?

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Oberlus
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Re: Make terraforming (and perhaps GAIA transform) cheaper

#7 Post by Oberlus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:56 pm Are there no other benefits than more production from doing terraforming?
Hardly.
The main gain is +population->+production, and secondarily +troops, and once you get to Gaia you also get +happiness. Only +production is relevant enough to justify spending PPs in it instead of in another colony (but see below) or more military force.

AFAIK, consensus is players only do terraforming when they have spare PPs (because they are already wining) and do not mind delaying victory. If you are losing (need more warships) and you do terraforming you just lose faster. This also applies to colonization vs military (if you build a colony ship when you needed a warship, you lose more than what you gain), but in a less harming way since for most of the time, getting new colonies is more rewarding (production-wise) than terraforming an old colony, regardless of colony size, so you have some room for fine-tuning how many PP you invest on colonization and how many in warships, while for terraforming the equation is "don't terraform, it's a waste". This changes with game progress: since new colonies cost more due to upkeep, while terraforming isn't subject to any form of upkeep, there is a point in empire size when terraforming becomes more efficient than colonizing everywhere, from there on you can alternate terraforming and colonization of best planets, and from certain point you should terraform everything before considering getting a new colony no matter sizes.
That is OK as a strategic choice, but not really interesting because it doesn't depend in any circumstance apart from number and size of colonies. But this is off-topic, plus I don't have suggestions for that.

Re. the opening post, making terraforming cheaper than currently means you reach those thresholds of efficiency sooner. That is a necessary change to make terraforming useful in small games (when you never reach that first threshold) but could increase the need of spamming terraforming mid game in bigger galaxies. So the next step would be to implement a way to automatize terraforming everywhere once the player decides to do so. A policy that creates some sort of terraforming special on every planet once it meets certain conditions, and the special increases colony upkeep for a few turns and then applies the terraforming effect and removes itself from the planet.

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LienRag
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Re: Make terraforming (and perhaps GAIA transform) cheaper

#8 Post by LienRag »

ThinkSome wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:39 pm Right now it is 100 * habitable size weighted with some factors, meaning that you are looking at ~300 PP to terraform a medium planet one step, which increases population by 6 or so. After the recent nerf to bonus, that means that it takes 72 turns to pay off at late game 0.7PP per population! This is unacceptable.

I propose that it is made much cheaper, let's say 30* habitable size, which would make it pay off in 25 turns (Gas gen+5 usually pays off in 20 turns for one planet, microgravity ind+2 40 turns for one planet). It can be made to take longer, e.g. 12-15 turns for one teraforming step.
You are right that 72 turns to pay off at maximum production is quite long, but either Gaïa is supposed to be built everywhere and then it shouldn't be a building (but rather a Policy that would Gaïa-ize all planets one at a time), or either Gaïa is not supposed to be built everywhere and then the slow ROI is not a problem by itself.

Right now Gaïa is interesting production-wise mostly in Homeworld since the Palace helps the production, or as a way to raise production without raising Upkeep or Influence costs.
I guess the Research boost in Temporal Anomaly planets can justify a Gaïa cost also ?

It is true that the recent nerf has changed a lot of previous equilibriums (for the best and the worst) but I'm not sure that the answer is to go on jury-rigging all the small parts that don't fit anymore, without any global vision of the bigger plan.

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LienRag
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Re: Make terraforming (and perhaps GAIA transform) cheaper

#9 Post by LienRag »

Oh, apparently you were talking mostly about terraforming rather than Gaïa, my mistake.
I think Oberlus's answer is quite an apt summary, then.

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