Scorched Earth Tactics

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LienRag
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Scorched Earth Tactics

#1 Post by LienRag »

The topic has arised in the 15th multiplayer game topic.

Scorched earth tactics are a no-brainer as of now, and no-brainers are detrimental to the game.

Yet, obviously having scorched earth tactics available though not as a no-brainer makes the game more diverse than not having scorched-earth tactics.

While we wait to find a general solution, I'd advocate that there are no legitimate use for scraping the Cultural Library - if you want to prevent the enemy from capturing it, defend your Capitol !
So I would propose to at least make the Cultural Library unscrapable.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#2 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:22 pm While we wait to find a general solution, I'd advocate that there are no legitimate use for scraping the Cultural Library - if you want to prevent the enemy from capturing it, defend your Capitol !
So I would propose to at least make the Cultural Library unscrapable.

I am totally for making buildings unscrapable in the general case for the players. As long as all buildings are monotone (in the sense that they never give a disadvantage) this is fine.

But in the 15th game i actually found a legit use for scraping the cultural library and scorched earth - when I found that i wont be able to invade oberlus' capitol (without reinvasion) for long time, i invaded and destroyed everything i could, mostly to deny him research points.

If we want only the cultural library bonus to be "unscrapable", we could add a special "cultural heritage" instead.
Related: we could have this special at some ancient ruins or deserted homeworlds.
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#3 Post by Geoff the Medio »

An alternative is perhaps to add some requirements to the benefits of the building not work in the short to medium term after capture, and perhaps even have it have negative effects for the owner durng that period, so that the capturing empire might want to scrap it, rather than the defending...
As long as all buildings are monotone (in the sense that they never give a disadvantage) this is fine.
Buildings cannot be assumed to be only beneficial, in some cases not in v0.4.10 and in most / all cases not in v0.5.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:25 pm An alternative is perhaps to add some requirements to the benefits of the building not work in the short to medium term after capture, and perhaps even have it have negative effects for the owner durng that period, so that the capturing empire might want to scrap it, rather than the defending..
Nice. Maybe extra stability issues?
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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#5 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:19 pm But in the 15th game i actually found a legit use for scraping the cultural library and scorched earth - when I found that i wont be able to invade oberlus' capitol (without reinvasion) for long time, i invaded and destroyed everything i could, mostly to deny him research points.
Indeed it was an interesting strategy.
I still think that no building that cannot be rebuilt should be scrapable, though.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#6 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:49 pm I still think that no building that cannot be rebuilt should be scrapable, though.
I find geoffs suggestion more intriguing. Give it short-term (10 turns) cost on invasion. Maybe really bad influence? For a reinvading empire that is probably easier to handle (as it is probably smaller). Certainly we should try that and see where it leads.

No idea what should happen when gifting though.
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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#7 Post by wobbly »

My main problem with scorched earth is the lack of cost/delay. If it takes time there's a choice between trying to hold and just abandoning it. Main problem with current situation is you can destroy it when you already know you've lost. Main issue I see with a delay is leaving it paused in the build queue.

Maybe evac and scrap should be a focus?

Perhaps concentration camps, also a focus??

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#8 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:39 am My main problem with scorched earth is the lack of cost/delay. If it takes time there's a choice between trying to hold and just abandoning it. Main problem with current situation is you can destroy it when you already know you've lost. Main issue I see with a delay is leaving it paused in the build queue.
You do not want a delay in terms of build time, but a delay in when the effects kick in and a cost for stopping the effect (or the effect should be unstoppable). We had some discussions about that recently - cant find it though... probably about abandoning outposts.

One part was that instead of a delay one can also add a mechanism by which enemies can halt/stop scorched earth effects. So for the example of the cultural library that could mean that it takes some turns to start the process of removing the effect and as soon as there are enemies in the system (or neighboring systems) it is not possible to scrap it. So a special could be there which allows you to build the library, but it dissolves after e.g. 10 turns if there is no library or enemies in the system.
wobbly wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:39 am Maybe evac and scrap should be a focus?

Perhaps concentration camps, also a focus??
In my opinion the point of a focus is that you can switch between those and they are mutual exclusive. So you can only have one of the gameplay effects. How would denying the other focus improve the current situation?

About scorched-earth and evacuation we were talking as a side topic in Allow build evacuate system on outpost. My main suggestion was to slow down evacuation if there is not much place to settle available.
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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#9 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:51 am
wobbly wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:39 am Maybe evac and scrap should be a focus?

Perhaps concentration camps, also a focus??
In my opinion the point of a focus is that you can switch between those and they are mutual exclusive. So you can only have one of the gameplay effects. How would denying the other focus improve the current situation?
I was possibly a little unclear here. I meant one focus (evacuation) that removed both population and buildings. The purpose is to add a cost (evacuating colonies aren't on production/research) and to create a choice between evacuation or defense focus. To be clear I'm not certain whether I like the idea or not. It was just one way to introduce a cost.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#10 Post by LienRag »

Evacuating a planet to deny the enemy the Species that is on it is a legitimate strategy (not a no-brainer as it takes many turns and has high cost), but when it results in permanently removing a Species from the game it's too powerful (and for bad reasons imho).

So I would propose that the XenoResurrection Lab would be able to ressuscitate a Species that went extinct, when build on one of their Homeworlds (maybe requiring a later tech than for the Kraken, so as to still making this resurrection non-trivial).

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#11 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:06 pm Evacuating a planet to deny the enemy the Species that is on it is a legitimate strategy (not a no-brainer as it takes many turns and has high cost), but when it results in permanently removing a Species from the game it's too powerful (and for bad reasons imho).
I disagree.

When evacuating a planet to deny the species to an enemy is revocable, then it becomes easier to make the decision (not sure if is is a no-brainer).
When doing it means you also deny the species to yourself, that is when it is a tough decision.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#12 Post by LienRag »

True, but it also depends on random luck (not always, but often).
Many other things depend on random luck, I reckon. But this one is definitive, while most others can be "solved" later.

If your opponent got a Kraken nest, you can take it from him (you just have to do it before he's able to build a Nest Eradicator). If things are balanced, you have also Specials in your territory that he can take from you.

If you get early access to a Native and know that you won't be able to hold it, your opponent has no way of preventing you from removing it from the game.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#13 Post by Oberlus »

You were talking about (1) how powerful it is to remove a species from game, and as commented above, it is not that powerful, the species is lost for everyone, and (2) that doing it was a no-brainer, which it isn't.

Now you mention luck.
Luck here is irrelevant to your point: regardless of the possibility of exterminating a species (to deny it to other players as well as to yourself), you can have or not have the species from galaxy creation. If not having a species at all (because it wasn't spawned) is acceptable, which certainly is, then removing species from the galaxy is also acceptable.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#14 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 2:06 pmSo I would propose that the XenoResurrection Lab would be able to ressuscitate a Species that went extinct, when build on one of their Homeworlds (maybe requiring a later tech than for the Kraken, so as to still making this resurrection non-trivial).
i agree that it is a bit of a downer that the species is gone. i dont see a problem gameplay wise. investing in order to deny the enemy something is a good thing.

but i would rather have not being able to evacuate if there is no place to go or having a hefty stability malus in that case.
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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#15 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 5:44 pm but i would rather have not being able to evacuate if there is no place to go or having a hefty stability malus in that case.
I like that. Evacuation should not be possible when there is no evacuation (throwing people to die into space is not evacuation).
For extermination we have Conc. Camps. Whoever wants to exterminate a species must either use bombardment or conc. camps (and Racial Purity).

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