Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

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Oberlus
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Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#1 Post by Oberlus »

Distrib. Thought Computing was renewed to give research bonus only to research-focused colonies with stability>=10, based on the maximum of two values:
- Maximum direct distance to an owned object (documentation says "ship"), actually 0.1*sqrt(dist), e.g. +2 for 400, +3 for 900, +4 for 1600... The idea would be to move a scout as far as possible of your planets. In a galaxy with diameter 4000 (big) maximum would be +20.
- The average of planet infrastructure (documentation doesn't say it, IIRC), that at early game can easily reach a +20/+25 RP at capital and +10/+15 at colonies.

Conceptually (fluff-wise), this means that the source of research power comes from infrastructures and or... the brains of all people at less distance than your further away owned stuff or what? That flips me out. Plus I didn't like making Algorithmic Elegance a policy. Too soon in the tech tree to spent a hard-to-get social slot for a tiny bonus on research, really bad for research species, while all pop-based bonuses to industry (and certainly all that are early game) are not policy-bound.

I like the infrastructure bonus, but doesn't make sense with DTC original fluff. I would like to revert changes to Algorithmic Elegance (get the effect without a policy), and rework Nascent AI to unlock Automated Research policy, and give that policy the infrastructure based bonus (nerfed: infrastructure/5 or /10) on all planets.
I liked the original fluff of DTC of using peoples brains. So I would like to keep a pop-based bonus to research-focused colonies, maybe based on all people in system.
I'd like to move the distance-based bonus to another tech or policy, maybe something related to detection, and give it a fluff about spying other worlds (military slot) or observing the whole known universe (science->social slot).

//Edit:
Actually, the Automated Research policy is already based on infrastructure, as well as in population: 1.0*min(infrastructure,population)
I would probably make it something like 0.1*infrastructure + 0.1*population or 0.2*(sqrt(infrastructure*population)).
But the idea of unlocking it with NAI is the same//


Comments?


I'll comment in this thread about other techs and policies that boost research that I think need rebalance/rework.

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LienRag
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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#2 Post by LienRag »

Interesting.

I don't really understand what is the player's agency over infrastructure, though.

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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#3 Post by LienRag »

And for the generic rebalance for 0.5 version, I think one of the main thing to do is fix stability thresholds.

We need to decide which boni we want to affect nearly all planets (Stability > 0), most planets (S > 5), the planets focused on their Species preferences¹ (S > 10), and some cherished and polished planets (S > 15 or 20).

Imho, most of the old boni should be at a Stability 5 threshold, as it allows the player more leeway in how he manages Stability on his planets. And anyway these boni have been paid in Research and/or Production already, it's just slowing an already snail-paced game² to deny them to low-Stability planets.
It's possible, if we decide to keep Stability a core feature of the game, to have tiered boni : the old bonus (or 70% of it) with a threshold at Stability 5, and further boni at S 10, S 15, S 20. It could even be interesting to have around 25 % of the old bonus as soon as Stability is positive.

Only for specific boni (and imho mostly or only new ones) should we put higher Stability thresholds entirely.

Oberlus wanted to bring back the Population-based research of Distributed Thought Computing; since it was removed for a reason (yes, I mourn it too, but objectively removing it is coherent with the design direction the game is taking), allowing this Population-based research bonus only for planets with high Stability (let's say 20) would not only be a good compromise balance-wise, it would bring some interesting arbitration and add to the game strategic diversity³.

I don't have more ideas for new boni (either from existing techs/buildings, as Oberlus suggested for NAI, or from new ones) kicking up at higher Stability thresholds, but I'm sure that collectively we can muster good ones.


¹ Yes, there are ways to raise Stability to this level without the focus, but mostly it's the same idea : going with the flow and limiting the player's choice concerning this planet.

² I'm not the best player, I know, but now I can't achieve a real dominance over AI - as bad as it plays now - before turn 300 or 400 depending on the settings and my strategy; I've read on the forum about games going up to 800 turns or more.

³ Note that it would obviously make DTC much, much less interesting that it was before its re-design, so a balance pass on his cost/prerequisite would be needed.

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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#4 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:46 pm And for the generic rebalance for 0.5 version, I think one of the main thing to do is fix stability thresholds.

We need to decide which boni we want to affect nearly all planets (Stability > 0), most planets (S > 5), the planets focused on their Species preferences¹ (S > 10), and some cherished and polished planets (S > 15 or 20).

Imho, most of the old boni should be at a Stability 5 threshold, as it allows the player more leeway in how he manages Stability on his planets. And anyway these boni have been paid in Research and/or Production already, it's just slowing an already snail-paced game² to deny them to low-Stability planets.
It's possible, if we decide to keep Stability a core feature of the game, to have tiered boni : the old bonus (or 70% of it) with a threshold at Stability 5, and further boni at S 10, S 15, S 20. It could even be interesting to have around 25 % of the old bonus as soon as Stability is positive.
I'd rather see the base stability go up, rather then the requirements go down. Under the old system I believe happiness started at 3 on a good enviroment, 2 on an adequate, 1 on a poor, 0 on a hostile. Something like that anyway. If that was brought back then a good environment(+3), preferred focus(+2) and adequate capital supply(+0) would allow for 1 disliked building in system(-4) without dropping to 0.

Maybe you could give the capital species bonus to new colonies (e.g. good environment capital species starts at 8 ), but perhaps that's unnecessary with the changes to colonial bootstrapping. I'd have to look how it works in latest master.

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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#5 Post by Oberlus »

This is what I will do in a first step:

Revert changes to tech Algorithmic Elegance:
- It doesn't unlock any policy.
- It gives +0.1*population RP, research-focused.
- Minimum stability 5.

Retool social policy Algorithmic Research:
- Rename it to Automated Research.
- Unlock it with tech Nascent AI.
- Make it give +2 RP (unfocused) and -5 infrastructure (dedicated to research, unavailable for other purposes).
- Minimum stability 5.

Improve Quantum Computing a bit:
- Make it give infrastructure/10 + population/10 RP, research-focused. Currently it is only pop/10.
- Minimum stability 10.

Rework and nerf Distributed Thought Computing:
- Make it give +(total population on system)/10 RP, research-focused. In a 3-colonies system with 20 average pop. gives +6 RP per research-focused planet. In a single-planet system it would be just +2 RP. Currently it gives huge-and-utterly-unbalanced bonus of infrastructure/2 (plus that distance-based bonus that gets overshadowed by infrastructure bonus; I'm moving that bonus to a different place: Enclave of the Void).
- Minimum stability 10.

Rework building Enclave of the Void:
- Make it unique (only one per empire, on conquest it gets destroyed).
- Make it give sqrt(max direct distance between the Enclave and any other owned object) RP, research focused. So 20 RP for 400 uu, 50 RP for 2500 uu, 100 RP for 10000 uu). Currently it is 0.15*pop, which for an empire with 30 planets and average pop of 20 gives +90 RP.
- Minimum stability 10.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#6 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:19 pmRework and nerf Distributed Thought Computing:
- Currently it gives huge-and-utterly-unbalanced bonus of infrastructure/2
This is a bug; it's supposed to be a limit, not an alternative mininum if the distance based contribution isn't reached.

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LienRag
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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#7 Post by LienRag »

One good thing of old DTC was that it allowed a base Research value (probably too much of it, I admit) even without focus.
Making it (or another one, maybe ? It's just that if fits well with DTC fluff) produce pop-based non-focused Research with high Stability would imho be an interesting thing, and work differently that what we have now.

I don't know which Stability threshold would be right, I proposed 20 because usually very few of my planets are at that level, but maybe other playstyles reach that level more easily ?
Anyway if the bonus is significant but not too high (like 0,05 per pop), it'll be a nice reward for high stability without being unbalanced.

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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#8 Post by Oberlus »

Using the pop of the system (instead of planet), regardless of focus and owner of the other planets in system, makes it more situational (and you love that) and still somewhat unfocused and very specific to fluff.

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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#9 Post by wobbly »

There isn't a good research focus stability booster. (other then environmentalism). Maybe quantum networking can be reworked to fill that gap.

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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#10 Post by wobbly »

Another random idea. Rework enclave of the void to provide influence in the late game. They could be "illuminati" figures.

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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#11 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:03 am Another random idea. Rework enclave of the void to provide influence in the late game. They could be "illuminati" figures.
Great Idea!!

About the other suggestion, I'd prefer to fine-tune available policies (maybe Liberty, but that one currently lowers stability regardless of focus) or maybe add a new one about academicism akin to Industrialism (not exactly the research counterpart, just similar).

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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#12 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:37 am About the other suggestion, I'd prefer to fine-tune available policies (maybe Liberty, but that one currently lowers stability regardless of focus) or maybe add a new one about academicism akin to Industrialism (not exactly the research counterpart, just similar).
Hmm.. how about "predictive modelling" off of NAI. Some fluff about predicting disasters (natural/social/economic). Could give a system based stability bonus for research focused planets?

Edit: I like the idea of a system-based bonus for something non-PP focused with the idea of sacrificing one planet in a GG/asteroid stack to stability.

Edit 2: another possibility in the vein of the above edit is some system bonus for a logistics, defense or stockpiling planet.

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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#13 Post by Oberlus »

Tht predictive modelling reminds me of Asimov's Psichohistory. I can't avoid to love it.
Maybe better than off NAI, off Quantum Networking?

Stellar Tomography is already a RP-focused system-based (the more RP-focused planets in the system, the more RP each planet gets, so it is exponential; love it).

Dunno about the second edit. Maybe you can flesh out a suggestion?

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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#14 Post by wobbly »

Yeah off quantum networking is probably better.

Scrap the 2nd edit. I think for logistics it already works directly by creating a supply line and opening confederation.

For stockpiling I think I'd now prefer to see a good early alternative to logistcs for the fulver to go disconnected. So as a rough draft:

Emergency Reserves policy. Unlocked by Generic Supplies. Up to +5 stability on disconected planets (+0.1x stockpile reserve (or 0.05x ?)) liked by Fulver (precog future worriers), disliked by George (childish).

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Re: Rebalance/rework research techs and policies (v0.5)

#15 Post by Geoff the Medio »

LienRag wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:42 pmOne good thing of old DTC was that it allowed a base Research value (probably too much of it, I admit) even without focus.
Was that really a good thing to have available from a game-balance perspective? Obviously it's appealing for an empire/player, but unless there's an additional requirement like needing a policy slot, rather high cost to research, or a highish stability requirement to get the effect, it's probably too good of a benefit.

In general though, I'd like to not have so many research bonuses just be dependent on population or infrastructure, or be fixed bonuses. I imagine industry as the resource that most depends on expansion. For research, I'd rather it more so involve doing different stuff on the map. Examples include:
-The current Distributed Thought Computing, which requires having stuff far apart
-Stellar Tomography, which benefits from lots of planets in one system
-The recently-added Exploration Research policy, which gives research for exploring systems, hopefully without being too micromanagy
-The research bonus from the Diversity policy, which benefits from having lots of differnet species
-The debated reserach bonus from Meteor Blizzards, which involves putting lots of ships in a particular area

I'll probably also add:
-A policy or building that gives research for having outposts or colonize on more different planet types or with different specials
-A ship part that gives research if the ship was involved in a battle (or perhaps was attacked) on the previous turn
-A few policies that work better for small / "tall" empires, including

There was also some discussion of having "anomalies" that give research when investigated. I'm not sure how to do that without it being automatic from what you're doing anyway (exploring) or too micromanagy (with specialized ships that have to be produced and move to the relevant location).

I'm also pondering some initial espionage type systems using policies, where if an empire is producing more than twice as much RP as another, the behind one can get some "free" research. This would be anit-snowball and somewhat discourage players from researching too much faster than others.

Regardless of the details though, I don't want to just add more / the same generic research boosts for having a tech or policy or setting a focus anywhere...

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