RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

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Ophiuchus
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RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

Just asking for general impressions as people always have problems "getting the imperial stockpile". (Maybe I already asked and cant remember)

the stockpile has two uses
  • stockpiling unused PP
  • and more important, providing a means to build outside of supply groups .
The main bottleneck of stockpile is stockpile extraction, it usually just a side issue if you put something into it before.

As the content moved to providing most of the stockpile only if setting the focus to stockpile, stockpiling unused PP does not make much sense (as you could probably provide more production if you put the focus on industry).

So what if we get rid of the stockpiling unused PP feature and just keep the means to build outside of supply groups?
In that case instead of the stockpile extraction limit we would have a location independent (imperial) industry meter instead, directly giving the means to build. That would simplify the concept and the UI a lot.


Note: stockpiling can make sense for the non-focus related stockpile-extraction. but it is either very small or the species have to be good/great at it. and the intention there was to make distributed production feasable.

Side note: unused PP would go to waste as they were before. also unused imperial PP would go to waste.
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LienRag
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Re: RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

#2 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:09 pm In that case instead of the stockpile extraction limit we would have a location independent (imperial) industry meter instead, directly giving the means to build. That would simplify the concept and the UI a lot.
Indeed it would.

How would that work for Sly or others though ?

I have to confess that though Stockpile is not KISS and removes the interest of cutting enemy Supply, I've got used to it now...

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Re: RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:24 pm How would that work for Sly or others though ?
Mostly: if you want to do a distributed empire you use the stockpile focus instead of the industry focus. Sly as a great species is better at it (i.e. gets more PP per stockpile focused population).
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LienRag
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Re: RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

#4 Post by LienRag »

I have played Sly a few time but never actually used the Stockpile focus...
Things got built without it most of the time.

On another topic, how could your Imperial meter go to waste ?
Wouldn't it apply to the main production group if nothing else ?

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Re: RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

#5 Post by wobbly »

I'm not convinced the proposed system is any easier to understand then the current system. In both cases you are probably either used it and understand how it works, or not used to it and its confusing.

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Re: RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

#6 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:01 pm I'm not convinced the proposed system is any easier to understand then the current system. In both cases you are probably either used it and understand how it works, or not used to it and its confusing.
+1

I'm not really understanding what you are discussing in this thread.
A planetary focus that produces PPs but less than industry focus and puts those PPs on the stockpile for a turn, and then supply-disconnected planets can use those PP in the same turn and whatever isn't used is lost next turn?

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Re: RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

#7 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:06 pm I'm not really understanding what you are discussing in this thread.
A planetary focus that produces PPs but less than industry focus and puts those PPs on the stockpile for a turn, and then supply-disconnected planets can use those PP in the same turn and whatever isn't used is lost next turn?
If that is the proposal then I'm also convinced that it's not any less complicated than the stockpile.

What I thought Ophiuchus proposal was is to have in "Imperial meter" that will be automatically filled with PP, and which can be used to get things build out of Supply (for example by using the Stockpile focus - now "Imperial transfer focus" or whatever I guess - on those out of Supply planets).

This last proposal is indeed simpler than the confusing Stockpile.

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Re: RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

#8 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:18 pm What I thought Ophiuchus proposal was is to have in "Imperial meter" that will be automatically filled with PP, and which can be used to get things build out of Supply (for example by using the Stockpile focus - now "Imperial transfer focus" or whatever I guess - on those out of Supply planets).
I only see one difference between what you describe here (that I'm sure I'm not understanding, mind my French) and current imperial stockpile system:
get things build out of Supply by using the Stockpile focus = only planets with that focus can access the stockpiled PP

The other is the same:
Imperial meter = imperial stockpile
automatically filled = wasted PP go to stockpile

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Re: RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

#9 Post by Ophiuchus »

My suggestion would be to make stockpile work mostly like industry. If you have stockpile, you can use that PP at any of your production centers. If you have industry, you can use that PP at any production center in the same supply group. That would be the only difference.

Production queue would work like it does now: going through production items top to bottom: first use industry PP to build, if still not finished use stockpile PP to build (iff that item is allowed to do that).
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:06 pm A planetary focus that produces PPs but less than industry focus and puts those PPs on the stockpile for a turn, and then supply-disconnected planets can use those PP in the same turn and whatever isn't used is lost next turn?
Ok i confused you guys with the lost PP. Before the stockpile, you would loose the PP from industry if you would not use it.

In my suggestion there would be no stockpile anymore to put anything in or to take anything out. Stockpile would work more like industry does, so if you do not use PP from the stockpile you loose those (exactly like with industry PP).
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Re: RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:18 pm What I thought Ophiuchus proposal was is to have in "Imperial meter" that will be automatically filled with PP, and which can be used to get things build out of Supply (for example by using the Stockpile focus - now "Imperial transfer focus" or whatever I guess - on those out of Supply planets).
I can read that in a way I meant it :D
So I try to rephrase what you said:
(edit: reading again i think you understand something different)
Instead of the current stockpile mechanic... lets have an Imperial Meter which can be used to get things build out of Supply.
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:28 pm I only see one difference between what you describe here (that I'm sure I'm not understanding, mind my French) and current imperial stockpile system:
get things build out of Supply by using the Stockpile focus = only planets with that focus can access the stockpiled PP

The other is the same:
Imperial meter = imperial stockpile
automatically filled = wasted PP go to stockpile
The point is the meter is more like a target meter than a normal meter. it does not care about the value of last turn (i.e. there is no way to pile up anything).
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RFC simplifying stockpile to location-independent production

#11 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:06 pm I'm not really understanding what you are discussing in this thread.
Actually I think it is the same as your suggestion Non-stockpiling alternative to the Imperial Stockpile

At the time I was not really opposed to your but just wanted to ship and move on. Also since then we moved to make the extraction limit more focus based which makes it more similar to industry.

So the basic underlying question is if the stockpiling capability is worth the extra complexity.

Without stockpiling, we get rid of
  • deciding from where to take industry PP to stockpile
  • stockpile project
  • the stockpile meter (there is still the extraction limit and target extraction)
  • the obvious +1 turn effect (this turn i sent PP to stockpile, next turn i can use this); you usually have this too with industry, but it is not so obvious as you dont have so much agency (because of slow meter growth)
What would be still there
  • deciding on planetary focus to boost extraction
  • deciding for other measures to boost extraction (which species to invade/colonize, researching techs, building buildings)
  • allow/disallow extraction from stockpile for production queue items
  • imperial extraction limit (shown in map and and production panel) and target extraction (shown in map)
  • planetary extraction limit and target (shown in planet panel)
  • production queue calculation mixing industry PP and stockpile PP
Also this is not a burning issue, the stockpile as is works. It has just been three years and i thought it might make sense to look for improvements/chances to simplify.

More important is to make distributed empires work again, in regards to influence/policies and stealth.
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