GUI for ship/fleet damage

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Oberlus
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Re: GUI for ship/fleet damage

#16 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:34 pm Gun firepower divided by 4 (or less for close distance direct weapons)
Fighter firepower divided by 3
You mean "show totals for a single bout instead of totals for the whole combat".
That is more or less what we are discussing.

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Re: GUI for ship/fleet damage

#17 Post by Ophiuchus »

Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:34 pm Divide all gun firepower by 4 (or less for close distance direct weapons)
All fighter firepower by 3

and just display that in the gui.

...
lot more accurate for User purposes
mostly depends on the purpose. the number shown is actually one of the most accurate ones for assessing if your fleet will survive an attack. if it is lower than your fleets total structure, some ships will survive for sure.

dealing damage accuracy depends mostly on the enemy fleet.
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:34 pm We know there are 4 rounds,
that depends on configuration. so N rounds for standard direct weapons, N-1 rounds for fighters launched in the first bout, N2- rounds for fighters launched in the seconde bout, ..., M rounds as configured for close combat weapons.

you are oversimplifying

and as oberlus rightly said we are already looking for a good UI to give per-round damage info, so step up your game, discussion is way ahead
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:08 pm
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:34 pm Gun firepower divided by 4 (or less for close distance direct weapons)
Fighter firepower divided by 3
You mean "show totals for a single bout instead of totals for the whole combat".
That is more or less what we are discussing.
+1
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Re: GUI for ship/fleet damage

#18 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:30 am For the simple version - what do you suggest for shots per bout;
Your mockup is very informative, and better than showing one bout per line as done with fighters (right, a ship can have a single type of fighters but different guns...).

Drawing on your mockup:

In the tooltip

Code: Select all

#  Weapon         Shots per bout x dmg           Fighters killed per bout
____________________________________________________________
2x Arc Disruptor* 6/6/6/6 x24 = 144/144/144/144  0/6/6/6
1x Flux Lance*    0/0/1/1 x12 = 0/0/12/12        0/1/1/1  
2x Striker*       0/4/6/6 x36 = 0/144/216/216    0/4/6/6
____________________________________________________________
Totals per bout                 144/288/372/372  0/11/13/13
____________________________________________________________
* These weapons will spread their shots between fighters and ships,
values shown in both columns assume all shots go to that type of target. 

The "6/...x24" part is what I would use to figure out damage against shields.
The "144/.../144" part is what I would use otherwise.
For weapons like striker and arc disruptor I would estimate the number of enemy fighters launched per bout (usually all are launched in bout 1) and the ratio of enemy fighters over enemy fighters+ships to figure out how many shots will target fighters and ships. E.g., if it is 75% (3 fighters per ship), I multiply the 144 of the arc disruptor by 0.25 in the second bout (so 36) and the number of filled fighters by 0.75 (so 4.5 fighters).


In the ship (before opening tooltip)
(dmg icon) <damage of first bout of guns and damage of fighters of second bout>/<maximum damage> (bomb icon) <fighters killed in bout 2>/<maximum killed fighters>
In the above example, that would be:

Code: Select all

(dmg icon) 288/1176  (bomb icon) 11/37


I saw the functions in the backend to calculate weapon or ship damage can take an argument for shield strength.
IFF we had a graphical way to tell the client the fleet against which we want to fight... Maybe considering the shield (average) value of the last fleet selected before selecting current one?

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Re: GUI for ship/fleet damage

#19 Post by Daybreak »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:45 pm mostly depends on the purpose. the number shown is actually one of the most accurate ones for assessing if your fleet will survive an attack. if it is lower than your fleets total structure, some ships will survive for sure.
dealing damage accuracy depends mostly on the enemy fleet.
I agree, if you are looking at the enemy fleet and total firepower is less than your own structure, but it is just a forecast. If I have plenty of PD, and they have mainly fighters, then the number is pretty much useless. I might as well just pull out my calculator, count the fighters and damage, and take 33% of that firepower as most likely to do damage.

I realise you are working on a way to make it more accurate, based on an enemy fleet, and I talk about that below.
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:45 pm
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:34 pm We know there are 4 rounds,
That depends on configuration. so N rounds for standard direct weapons, N-1 rounds for fighters launched in the first bout, N2- rounds for fighters launched in the seconde bout, ..., M rounds as configured for close combat weapons.
What I was saying, is there are 4 rounds, irrespective of when a ship/fighter/short range weapon will fire.
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:45 pm you are oversimplifying
You guys are overcomplicating it, however I like what you are proposing, but keep in mind what you are proposing is just a forecast of what may happen.
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:45 pm and as oberlus rightly said we are already looking for a good UI to give per-round damage info, so step up your game, discussion is way ahead
Don't assume I don't know what is going on. I am suggesting something different. You are rocket scientists for all purposes here, but that means you have a need to be accurate, even if that is a very comlicated solution. I am not having a dig at you, and I am in favour of what you are trying to acheive.

What I do know is, that the forecast firepower as now shown in the Gui is just a forecast, nothing more. As Wobbly said earlier - its a big lie.
But a number based on gun firepower divided by 4 (or less for close distance direct weapons), and fighter firepower divided by 3, is a lot more accurate and will hit the enemy or their number will hit me, less shielding, in essential the first round (second for fighters) - yes less accurate for close range weapons, but those numbers and not huge anyway.

Then knowing the enemies fleet composition I can forecast how much more firepower may hit, and how many ships may survive for both sides.

I am not trying to solve the overall problem, just make it simpler.

I understand you would like to be more accurate than that but how are you going to do that-
Hover over one 'ship' to get the numbers, then move on to the next
Hover over the 'battle fleet' numbers and then if there is more than one fleet, hover over them as well.
Hover over the 'location' of a fleet (numbers at top of fleet screen), get the numbers and move to next location

Whatever you come up with, I am all for it

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:45 pm
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:08 pm
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:34 pm Gun firepower divided by 4 (or less for close distance direct weapons)
Fighter firepower divided by 3
You mean "show totals for a single bout instead of totals for the whole combat".
That is more or less what we are discussing.
+1
Yes, but in the gui as it exists now, not as "hover over this and get this information" but you still have to then look at all fleets that are involved.

as you said Ophiuchus
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 9:03 am In the perfect world we would have a tool on the map to handle that - e.g. you select a system & paint a lasso to select fleets, get an sample or average combat report for that and are able to modify the participating ships.
Anyway I will not argue it any more. It is a suggestion or simple solution to make it easier, and if rejected then fine.

Personally I would prefer to still have the division as I proposed, but fighter firepower be placed next to the fighter icon instead of being part of the total.

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Re: GUI for ship/fleet damage

#20 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:53 pm What I was saying, is there are 4 rounds, irrespective of when a ship/fighter/short range weapon will fire.
Yeah, but the number of bouts is a parameter. You can set number of bouts at game start, and the gui must work for every setting.
Yes, but in the gui as it exists now, not as "hover over this and get this information"
Yes. That is what we are discussing.
Don't assume I don't know what is going on.
If you make suggestions and statements that seem off, it's normal that one can think you are missing something. Like in the quotes here.
Maybe there are language barriers.

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Re: GUI for ship/fleet damage

#21 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:23 pm
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:53 pm What I was saying, is there are 4 rounds, irrespective of when a ship/fighter/short range weapon will fire.
Yeah, but the number of bouts is a parameter. You can set number of bouts at game start, and the gui must work for every setting.
ok, but that can be accomodated, division by the parameter's set.
It does become a bit confusing though, unless everyone knows what the parameters are in that game. Your ideas to show the bouts/rounds will accomodate that even if just a forecast.
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:23 pm
Don't assume I don't know what is going on.
If you make suggestions and statements that seem off, it's normal that one can think you are missing something. Like in the quotes here.
Maybe there are language barriers.
yes, and then include no voice inflections or facial expressions, and statements can be easily be miscontrued.
Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:23 pm
Daybreak wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:53 pm Yes, but in the gui as it exists now, not as "hover over this and get this information"
Yes. That is what we are discussing.
Maybe a misunderstanding here - I mean the gui as it exist at this time with no modification.
I believe your ideas will entail a new screen, or hover screen.

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Re: GUI for ship/fleet damage

#22 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:21 am Maybe a misunderstanding here - I mean the gui as it exist at this time with no modification.
Yes, I already understood what you mean, several posts ago.

You are suggesting one GUI change: in the fleets, show the maximum total combat damage divided by 3 for fighter and 4 for guns, instead of the current maximum totals.
I suggested to show the values for a single bout and total (two numbers), and more info in the tooltip for the individual ships.
The tooltip is not a new thing, it is there already. Try hovering your mouse over the damage icon of a ship.

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Re: GUI for ship/fleet damage

#23 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:30 pm The "6/...x24" part is what I would use to figure out damage against shields.
not sure how you do it, but as a reminder/side-note:

one simple way (without having to sum up subtraction results for all non-shield-piercing weapons) for estimating damage against shields:
get the total of non-shield-piercing weapon shots and multiply that by (average) shield strength of the enemy fleet.
that is the total amount of damage soaked by the enemy fleet shields, so one can simply subtract that from the damage total.

Code: Select all

real_damage = damage - (#non-piercing-shots * average_enemy_shield
this is a simplification - in case the shield strength is actually higher than a non-shield-piercing weapon this formula overestimates the shield effect accordingly.

for strikers and arc disruptors one can adapt the number of shots accordingly.

the relevance for UI here might be that total shots per bout might make sense to be shown.
and that a split for shield piercing / non-piercing weapons could/would help.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Re: GUI for ship/fleet damage

#24 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:30 pm I saw the functions in the backend to calculate weapon or ship damage can take an argument for shield strength.
IFF we had a graphical way to tell the client the fleet against which we want to fight... Maybe considering the shield (average) value of the last fleet selected before selecting current one?
yes, a "fleet-picking" for "expected-enemy-shields" makes sense.

we have some functionality like that.
pedia sometimes shows different values depending on current object selected.
in my opinion that functionality is obscure though.

So i am not completely convinced that it is visible enough though.

directly setting expected shield level would be more visible

else showing a row in the fleet manager with "expected enemy", with a picker button (click picker, click fleet, fleet becomes "expected enemy") and a "clear" button . The shown damage/kill values would effectively take the average enemy shields from it. For more sophisticated calculations (e.g. taking the fleet systems planets into account, taking ship/fighter ratio into account), the infrastructure is not there.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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