we probably could also project future visibility bubble(s) when one clicks on a ship
detection and ships on starlanes
Moderator: Oberlus
Re: detection and ships on starlanes
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Re: detection and ships on starlanes
Re: detection and ships on starlanes
When scouts can't scan while on starlanes, you don't have any problem, just send a scout and cross fingers. With visibility from starlanes you can do the same. Will I get visibility of system X if I send my ship at system A to system B? the ship will be at 73.6% of trip towards B, the distance between A and B is D, the distance between X and the starlane is E, then... AH! COME ON! SEND THE BLOODY SCOUT!
Re: detection and ships on starlanes
I've generally been able to do it with a combination of the turn number from the ship path and a visibility bubble from a system. Similar to when you are trying to work out whether a ship moving on a starlane will pass into the visibility bubble of a scout sitting in system.
One thing the UI is missing in general is a good way to measure the distance between 2 points. There are a lot of cases you could work out with a simple line distance. Irregardless of what happens with detection.
- Geoff the Medio
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Re: detection and ships on starlanes
I can relatively easily add extra rendered visibility circles at the expected location of ships / fleets after the next turn's movement. But this will not easily take into account any changes in their visibility ranges between turns. Already there are effects like reduce detection range in Nebulas that will complicate this, leading to inaccurate detection range predictions. Additional differences in range between in-system and not-in-system will increase the discrepancy.
And no, I can't just apply a scaling factor to the detection range values when out of system before rendering, as any variation of such ranges dependent on location will be implemented as an arbitrary effect which the UI can't assume works in a particular simple-to-account-for way. eg. the Nebula effect on detection range.
Properly estimating ranges at expected locations would probably involve adding a bunch of test ships at those locations and calculating what their detection ranges would be. Probably possible, but a bit annoying and more difficult to implement.
And no, I can't just apply a scaling factor to the detection range values when out of system before rendering, as any variation of such ranges dependent on location will be implemented as an arbitrary effect which the UI can't assume works in a particular simple-to-account-for way. eg. the Nebula effect on detection range.
Properly estimating ranges at expected locations would probably involve adding a bunch of test ships at those locations and calculating what their detection ranges would be. Probably possible, but a bit annoying and more difficult to implement.
Re: detection and ships on starlanes
A one off would be ok (as long as we do not have pre-movement effects).Geoff the Medio wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:32 am And no, I can't just apply a scaling factor to the detection range values when out of system before rendering, as any variation of such ranges dependent on location will be implemented as an arbitrary effect which the UI can't assume works in a particular simple-to-account-for way. eg. the Nebula effect on detection range.
I am not completely sure how detection and effects interact / when the visibility maps get updated. Also we have the complication of two times evaluation where there could be discrepancies (if new content was spawned).
The visibility circles will be wrong in the same way as e.g. speed prediction already is - stops and ETA are totally wrong when influenced by e.g. a void rift. So it would be good to solve/better this regardless of future detection.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Re: detection and ships on starlanes
if we change detection we still need omni detection - a way to detect any combination of stealth boosts. not sure what that means for detection distance. The only requirement i can think of: it must be longer than greatest distance to an experimentor system - any other planet is reachable by hopping along starlanes, so there are ways of getting intel.
oberlus suggestion of nerfed ship detection
so i guess maximum detection range should be lower than 160; so the proposed nerf could cut it.
oberlus suggestion of nerfed ship detection
i am not sure about maximum detection range. getting 120 ship speed is relatively easy. 140 ship speed is quite possible with all the hull lines (asteroid and xentronium need the RP-expensive core drives). usually 160 is also possible but needs an engine part, up to 180. sentient hull goes up to 200. solar hull up to 220.Oberlus wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:21 pm In terms of areas:
Detection 1: 50 (base area 100%).
Detection 2: +25 -> 75 (+125% area)
Detection 3: +25 -> 100 (+77.8% area, or +300% with respect to detection 1)
Detection 4: +50 -> 150 (+125% area, or +800%)
Detection 5: +50 -> 200 (+77.8% area, or +1500%)
We could distribute more uniformly the area growth per level:
Detection 1: 50 (base area 100%).
Detection 2: +20 -> 70 (+96% area)
Detection 3: +30 -> 100 (+104% area, or +300% with respect to detection 1)
Detection 4: +40 -> 140 (+96% area, or +684%)
Detection 5: +60 -> 200 (+104% area, or +1500%)
And nerf it:
Detection 1: 50 (base area 100%).
Detection 2: +15 -> 65 (+69% area)
Detection 3: +20 -> 85 (+71% area, or +189% with respect to detection 1)
Detection 4: +25 -> 110 (+68% area, or +384%)
Detection 5: +40 -> 150 (+86% area, or +800%)
But really really stick to distances and radius in code and UI, not to areas.
so i guess maximum detection range should be lower than 160; so the proposed nerf could cut it.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Re: detection and ships on starlanes
I ponder if it is better to let maximum planetary detection range be greater than maximum speed of robotic hull line (80) + fastest engine (80) + traffic control (20) = 180, and lower than energy hull (120) + fastest engine + traffic control = 220.
I think a maximum detection range of 200 is OK as a first balance try.
I want to make tactical maneuvering more interesting mid to late game, but think it is OK late game to make scouting easier except against the fastest hulls+engines. Otherwise it will be just a matter of having a constant flow of inexpensive scouts to send one every turn, which isn't funnier than having enough range to see all adjacent systems. Even late game with maximum range of 300, one can prepare ambushes if the map is big enough, and a reduction of 33% is sizeable.
I think a maximum detection range of 200 is OK as a first balance try.
I want to make tactical maneuvering more interesting mid to late game, but think it is OK late game to make scouting easier except against the fastest hulls+engines. Otherwise it will be just a matter of having a constant flow of inexpensive scouts to send one every turn, which isn't funnier than having enough range to see all adjacent systems. Even late game with maximum range of 300, one can prepare ambushes if the map is big enough, and a reduction of 33% is sizeable.
Re: detection and ships on starlanes
How about max. tech sentient hull sees max. speed solar hull?
Re: detection and ships on starlanes
The scout-jump into the abyss. Not that using a solar hull for a scout sounds sounds like the best idea in the first place. But principle is nice.
One more thought: starlanes are rarely that long(?), so from a certain point on longer detection ranges cover all single jump distances. if multi-jumps are not straight, you can also see detect "further" than you can jump using speed.
it would be nice if there was a way to increase distance in the end game. not only slowing down ships going along starlanes but also deforming detection bubbles. what is possible currently is spawning a field around a system which you want to "detach", which decreases stealth and detection (actually multiple fields or some other way of gradual effects).
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Re: detection and ships on starlanes
So a solar with the fastest engine is 200. Actually 240 with an interstellar lighthouse and traffic control, but 200 detection is actually 250 in a laenfa/trith ship. So I'm calling it 200 which lines up with:
Sentients are +100 detection. That'd give room for 4 steps of +25 for the scanners.
I'd also still like to see Symbiots detection range come down a bit, like this:
Re: detection and ships on starlanes
Any thoughts, disagreements, complaints before I write a pull request?
- Nerf symbiots detection by 10 to create more space for protoplasm.
Tech detection steps of +25 range
Scanning Facility reduced to +50 range
Snowflakes reduced to good vision
Re: detection and ships on starlanes
Let's try it.
- Geoff the Medio
- Programming, Design, Admin
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