Species balancing

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Ophiuchus
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Re: Species balancing

#31 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:24 pm In an effect in the species.
...probably at TARGET_POPULATION_OVERRIDE_PRIORITY

https://freeorion.org/index.php/Effects ... ard_Values
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Re: Species balancing

#32 Post by Oberlus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:20 pm I'm working on two new species traits (already suggested and discussed in other threads):

Engineers (ship structure).

Speed (ships speed), or maybe other name, like Engines, but too similar to Engineers.

There is also an idea from Daybreak for a great engineers new species based on Ankylosaurus (which means "twisted lizard"). I'm thinking of calling them Thoraspis (aprox. "armored shield" in ancient greek).


I'd like to hear suggestions on what species could get some bad or good structure/speed traits.

I think Egassem could be good engineers bad speed.

Misiorla could be great speed and bad engineers.
Mu Ursh good speed and bad engineers.
Yes, that would make all native good/great pilots also fast and fragile.
Bump.

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Re: Species balancing

#33 Post by wobbly »

I like the idea of Sly ships being slow if they get a stealth bump (and perhaps fast if they don't).

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Re: Species balancing

#34 Post by Oberlus »

Yeah, let's introduce at the same time species trait for ship stealth.

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Re: Species balancing

#35 Post by LienRag »

Again, I believe that Misioria, being Ultimate pilots, shouldn't be Good anything else.
But Banforo and Kilandow could get some Good traits (fast and stealthy for Banforos, engineers for Kilandow ?).

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Re: Species balancing

#36 Post by Oberlus »

Good speed + bad structure (and maybe bad shields), fits the "reckless" fluff of Misiorla and doesn't make them OP.

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Re: Species balancing

#37 Post by LienRag »

Abaddoni Great Engineers ?
Chato Great Stealth ?
Cray Great Starfarers ?
George Good Engineers, Good Starfarers ?
Gysache Good Engineers ?
Human I'd rather have Humans (the standard Species for new players) be Average everywhere. Not sure that making them Good Influence was a good idea.
Laenfa Good Stealth, Bad Starfarers ?
Replicon Bad Stealth ?
Scylior Good Stealth, Good Starfarers ?
Sly Good Stealth, Good Engineers, Bad Starfarers ?
Trith Good Engineers, Good Stealth ?

Acirema Good Starfarers ?
Cynos Good Engineers, Good Stealth, Bad Starfarers ?
Derthrean Bad Starfarers, Bad Stealth, Good Engineers ?
Gis Guf Gthrim Bad Starfarers, Good Stealth, Bad Engineers ?
Happy Birthday Bad Stealth, Bad Starfarers ?
Hhoh Good Engineers, Bad Stealth ?
Khakturian Good Starfarers, Bad Engineers (probably should refuel on bright stars) ?
Kobuntura Bad Stealth ?
Mu Ursh Bad Stealth, Good Starfarers, Bad Engineers ?
NightSiders Bad Starfarers, Bad Engineers ?
Setinons Great Stealth, Bad Starfarers, Bad Engineers ?
Sslith Great Starfarers, Bad Engineers ?
Tae Ghirus Good Stealth, Bad Starfarers ?
Ugmors Good Engineers, Good Stealth, Bad Starfarers ?



And I maintain that having Ultimate pilots also fast is a bad idea.
Especially since Misiorias are the only Species with Ultimate pilot trait.

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Re: Species balancing

#38 Post by Oberlus »

And I maintain that having Ultimate pilots also fast is a bad idea.
Especially since Misiorias are the only Species with Ultimate pilot trait.
I think that making that kind of statements require careful thinking. Could you share your reasoning of why?

Below are mine.



Combat and tactical ship meters affected by species traits:
- Weapons: +/-16.7% (of level 4 guns damage) per trait level.
- Structure: +/-16.7% (of hull and armor parts strength) per trait level.
- Shields: +/-16.7% aprox. (of base shield strength) per trait level.
- Speed: +/-20% (of hull and engine base speed) per trait level. A good speed frigate has 60+12, good speed basic scout has 75+15, good speed solar with singularity 200+40.
- Stealth: +/-10 (half a detection tech level) per trait level. So Ultimate is +30 stealth.
- Detection range: Bad -20, Good +25, Great +50, Ultimate +100.

I leave out attack troops.


For equal ship designs, the following combination of traits would all be equally powerful:

- Ultimate Weapons + Bad Structure (e.g. suggested Misiorla)
- Bad Weapons + Ultimate Structure
- Good Weapons + Good Structure
- Average Weapons + Great Structure
- Great Weapons + Average Structure (e.g. Eaxaw)

I think Misiorla must be better than Eaxaw at combat. I could just leave them as they are (average structure and speed), or I could give them bad structure and good speed that fits their interesting lore.

From this, I am inclined to think there is no problem in giving Misiorla good speed and bad structure. They would not be OP, nor too similar to other species, plus it makes sense fluff-wise.

Suggested changes for playable species:

- Etty: good ship stealth, together with their good weapons should make for some interesting early surprise attacks.
- Egassem: bad speed and good structure, just because they are so bulky.
- Sly: bad structure (the required internal environment of the Sly ships for them to stay alive makes the ships more fragile), bad speed (they navigate cautiously), great ship stealth (silent running plus lower mass of their ships), good fuel (their environment is partly fuel for the ship if needed). All this should make hidden, distributed empires easier for Sly.
- Trith: good ship stealth (they sense other beings and can navigate to avoid them and stay hidden). Some extra help for Trith to go hidden, distributed.
- Replicon: bad stealth and good structure (their ships are similar to what they do in their planets: chaotic and unstructured, like the Reavers' ships in Firefly series and Serenity movie, making them hard to miss, and the redundant armor plates makes them extra resistant).
- Fulver: good speed maybe? they are already great fuel and good weapons.
- Laenfa: the Sneaky trait doesn't make any easier to research the ship stealth parts, so Laenfa could get good stealth and maybe bad speed.
- Cray: good speed, because they are so happy that doesn't fear crashing into an asteroid, and because I couldn't think of anyone else in the playable species that could get good or better speed.

This makes for
- stealth: 2 good, 1 great, 1 bad.
- speed: 2-3 bad, 2 good.
- structure: 2 good, 1 bad

I find the other playable species are more or less OK and with no support on their fluff to add any of the new three traits. But there is always time to change mind.

Natives:
Acirema: bad ship stealth (from their description, they emit energy easily detectable), good speed (they are energy beings capable of powering their ships shields and also the engines).
Happybirthday: good speed.
Khakturian: good structure. Would be really great for troopers. Maybe too good, so also bad speed or bad fuel.
Mu Ursh: good speed and bad structure.
Dearthren: to help balance their great influence, bad structure and bad speed. But real balancing, if needed, should come from making them harder to keep stable.
Tae Ghirus: to help compensate their great influence and their "nothing bad", bad fuel and bad structure. But real balancing, if needed, should come from making them harder to keep stable.

Extinct species:
Banforo: great speed, good fuel, bad structure, bad stealth. Together with their ultimate detection, they would make for very interesting scouts.
Misiorla: bad fuel, structure and stealth, good speed and ultimate weapons.

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Re: Species balancing

#39 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:40 am - Trith: good ship stealth (they sense other beings and can navigate to avoid them and stay hidden). Some extra help for Trith to go hidden, distributed.
I like this one. Combined with their good detection and good shields it makes Trith an all round good ship while still being likely weaker then the good pilots.
Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:40 am - Fulver: good speed maybe? they are already great fuel and good weapons.
I'd be more tempted by good speed on Scyllor, which is a bad fuel race.
Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:40 am - Laenfa: the Sneaky trait doesn't make any easier to research the ship stealth parts, so Laenfa could get good stealth and maybe bad speed.
Dislike bad speed for laenfa. Using fast symbiots combined with the detection range is a nice way to ambush people. Gives a sneaky method for non-stealth path laenfa. If you changed them I'd prefer fast and fragile, but they are also ok staying at average.
Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:40 am - Cray: good speed, because they are so happy that doesn't fear crashing into an asteroid, and because I couldn't think of anyone else in the playable species that could get good or better speed.
Cray need a small nerf, not a buff.
Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:40 am Acirema: bad ship stealth (from their description, they emit energy easily detectable), good speed (they are energy beings capable of powering their ships shields and also the engines).
I would not do anything here. Also if this goes through https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/4103 , they'll have speed through starting with an energy shipyard.
Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:40 am Happybirthday: good speed.
Something to make happybirthday and gis guf interesting is something I support. Unsure of actual details.
Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:40 am Tae Ghirus: to help compensate their great influence and their "nothing bad", bad fuel and bad structure. But real balancing, if needed, should come from making them harder to keep stable.
They are bad troopers and bad pilots. Nerfing the ships doesn't change the fact they are already bad ships. Good fuel and bad speed could be interesting if you wanted a use case for Tae Ghris ships, or you could do nothing here.
Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:40 am Ugmor
You didn't mention Ugmor but you did mention Egassem. I'd like Ugmor on a different pattern to Egassem to differentiate the 2 good trooper ships, though keeping Ugmor average and changing Egassem achieves that.

Edit: George could be a candidate for bad structure, from a pure "nerf" perspective.

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Re: Species balancing

#40 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:06 am I'd be more tempted by good speed on Scyllor, which is a bad fuel race.
I remember a recent report of Scylior a bit OP. Maybe good speed plus bad structure and leave Fulver as is.

All right about Laenfa: no changes.
wobbly wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:06 am Cray need a small nerf, not a buff.
Ok, then bad speed because they are too happy to haste.

Ok on Acirema, but give them bad stealth for lore.
wobbly wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:06 am Good fuel and bad speed could be interesting if you wanted a use case for Tae Ghris ships, or you could do nothing here.
Ok.
Edit: George could be a candidate for bad structure
Ok.

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Re: Species balancing

#41 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:33 pm
wobbly wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:06 am I'd be more tempted by good speed on Scyllor, which is a bad fuel race.
I remember a recent report of Scylior a bit OP. Maybe good speed plus bad structure and leave Fulver as is.
Yeah I'd also be worried about buffing Scylior. My main perspective here is: Outside of early game when I have Scylior and nothing else, why do I ever build a Scylior ship?

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Re: Species balancing

#42 Post by Oberlus »

I get your point. Good speed and bad fuel is a good idea then.

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Re: Species balancing

#43 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:40 am - Stealth: +/-10 (half a detection tech level) per trait level. So Ultimate is +30 stealth.
That's way too powerful, uncounterable in many situations, and this mostly because of luck (having or finding the right Species).
What I proposed when I suggested to add ship stealth as a trait was +5 per level : the idea is to be able to use the small boni that can be found in the Galaxy (bright stars, resonant moons, good hulls) and/or counter the small mali (like Fleet Unstealthiness), not to allow the player to not care anymore about detection.

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Re: Species balancing

#44 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:41 pm My main perspective here is: Outside of early game when I have [Species] and nothing else, why do I ever build a [Species] ship?
That's basically why I proposed to make all ship-building species have a ship-related trait (the Human trait being being average on everything).

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Re: Species balancing

#45 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:53 am
Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:40 am - Stealth: +/-10 (half a detection tech level) per trait level. So Ultimate is +30 stealth.
That's way too powerful
[...]
What I proposed when I suggested to add ship stealth as a trait was +5 per level
I remember. I still disagree. I'll quote myself.
Oberlus wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:46 pm Detection strength levels go by 20 per step. +5 is negligible, not worth it. +10 is seldom useful, for very specific hulls for a short time. +20 just allows you to stay one stealth tech level behind average players. It's the same as with planetary stealth.
Either it can be balanced with the values I recommend or the whole trait is useless, the solution is not to limit it to +5 and +10.
Great stealth +20 is not two powerful (specially if it is only for Sly, who are bad pilots): detector needs same detection tech than the stealth tech of the hiding ship (which costs less RP than the stealth techs), plus Continuous scanning, and for the most stealthy hulls that tip the balance to the hidden ship, add a Lighthouse.
Anyways, even when you can not detect a hidden ship, if it attacks, it has just one combat bout of being undetected. It ain't that serious when you are prepared for sneaky attacks. Players will often find themselves in the rear part of the research race and will have to face hidden skirmishers, like I've done already in past MP games. It's not the end of the world, it can be countered if you focus on detection stealth or if you keep some warships in the important planets, and stealth tactics are in need of a boost.

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