Species balancing

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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LienRag
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Re: Species balancing

#61 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:36 pm
LienRag wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:33 pm But yes for the +5/15 values, they're nearly useless
You don't really appreciate nuances, do you ?
nearly useless != useless

And especially since I wasn't talking about absolute value but about the use of steps of 5 in a time where apart from Continuous Scanning the minimum step was +10 (Resonant moon, difference between hulls, ...).
So yes, in that context +5 wasn't very different from +0 nor +15 very different from +10.

Things have changed a lot with Ophiuchus' introduction of star brightness and fleet unstealthiness, which both have steps of 5.

So nowadays +5/+10/+15 are "without use case" until the turn when they make all the difference and as such get a very real use case.

Which is what we want : not driving the player's strategy, but creating new possibilities.

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Re: Species balancing

#62 Post by wobbly »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:59 am maybe the high stealth bonus only to unarmed vessels? still powerful, very useful for peaceful expansion. sucks fluffwise though
Reserve great stealth for a native species without attack troops?

Make the stealth bonus proportional to the hull's base stealth?

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Re: Species balancing

#63 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:46 pm Make the stealth bonus proportional to the hull's base stealth?
Maybe that. I'll find time to see numbers.

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Re: Species balancing

#64 Post by wobbly »

Opinions on moving Trith to broad environment, and Kobuntura to narrow environment tolerance?

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Re: Species balancing

#65 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 9:03 am Opinions on moving Trith to broad environment, and Kobuntura to narrow environment tolerance?
+1


Oberlus wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:49 pm I'll find time to see numbers.
Meh.

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Re: Species balancing

#66 Post by wobbly »

No. of liked policies
Abaddoni(+2.5 stability) - 5
Chato - 4
Cray(+5 stability) - 6
Eaxaw - 5
Egassem (-2.5 stability) - 6
Etty - 5
Fulver (-2.5 stability) - 10
George (+2.5 stability) - 5
Gysache - 5
Human - 1
Laenfa - 11
Scylior - 3
Sly - 6
Trith (-2.5 stability) - 7

Notice that Human stands out as being hard to get stability/opinion through policies? Disliking Military Command doesn't help the situation:

Code: Select all

    likes=[
        "PLC_MODERATION",
        "FOCUS_INFLUENCE",
        "FOCUS_RESEARCH",
        "WORLDTREE_SPECIAL",
        "SHIMMER_SILK_SPECIAL",
        "FRACTAL_GEODES_SPECIAL",
        "ANCIENT_RUINS_DEPLETED_SPECIAL",
        "GAIA_SPECIAL",
    ],
    dislikes=[
        "PLC_CENTRALIZATION",
        "TIDAL_LOCK_SPECIAL",
        "FOCUS_BIOTERROR",
        "FOCUS_PROTECTION",
        "BLD_MILITARY_COMMAND",
        "BLD_BIOTERROR_PROJECTOR",
        "BLD_SPATIAL_DISTORT_GEN",
        "FORTRESS_SPECIAL",
        "TEMPORAL_ANOMALY_SPECIAL",
        "KRAKEN_NEST_SPECIAL",
        "SP_NIGHTSIDERS",
    ],
Scylior aren't as bad, but they do dislike the imperial palace. I'd argue that should be reserved for the non-playable races(probably same for military command).

Code: Select all

    likes=[
        "FOCUS_RESEARCH",
        "SHIMMER_SILK_SPECIAL",
        "FRACTAL_GEODES_SPECIAL",
        "CRYSTALS_SPECIAL",
        "MONOPOLE_SPECIAL",
        "SPICE_SPECIAL",
        "ECCENTRIC_ORBIT_SPECIAL",
        "RESONANT_MOON_SPECIAL",
        "PLC_DIVERSITY",
        "PLC_ENVIRONMENTALISM",
        "PLC_TECHNOCRACY",
    ],
    dislikes=[
        "BLD_SHIPYARD_CON_NANOROBO",
        "BLD_IMPERIAL_PALACE",
        "BLD_BIOTERROR_PROJECTOR",
        "BLD_SPACE_ELEVATOR",
        "BLD_HYPER_DAM",
        "BLD_PLANET_DRIVE",
        "BLD_NEUTRONIUM_FORGE",
        "BLD_NEUTRONIUM_SYNTH",
        "KRAKEN_IN_THE_ICE_SPECIAL",
        "PHILOSOPHER_SPECIAL",
        "TEMPORAL_ANOMALY_SPECIAL",
        "WORLDTREE_SPECIAL",
        "PLC_MARTIAL_LAW",
        "PLC_RACIAL_PURITY",
        "PLC_TERROR_SUPPRESSION",
    ],
Chato is probably fine. Once you reach conformance they have an easy booster.

Code: Select all

    likes=[
        "FOCUS_RESEARCH",
        "FRACTAL_GEODES_SPECIAL",
        "SHIMMER_SILK_SPECIAL",
        "FRUIT_SPECIAL",
        "MONOPOLE_SPECIAL",
        "GAIA_SPECIAL",
        "ELERIUM_SPECIAL",
        "SPICE_SPECIAL",
        "PLC_CONFORMANCE",
        "PLC_DIVINE_AUTHORITY",
        "PLC_DREAM_RECURSION",
        "PLC_MODERATION",
    ],
    dislikes=[
        "BLD_PLANET_CLOAK",
        "BLD_SCANNING_FACILITY",
        "BLD_INTERSPECIES_ACADEMY",
        "BLD_SHIPYARD_CON_ADV_ENGINE",
        "BLD_NEUTRONIUM_FORGE",
        "BLD_STARGATE",
        "ECCENTRIC_ORBIT_SPECIAL",
        "KRAKEN_NEST_SPECIAL",
        "PANOPTICON_SPECIAL",
        "PLC_LIBERTY",
        "PLC_STOCKPILE_LIQUIDATION",
        "PLC_ALGORITHMIC_RESEARCH",
        "PLC_ARTISAN_WORKSHOPS",
    ],

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Re: Species balancing

#67 Post by wobbly »

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/4881

It's waiting on at least the end of 26th MP, so there's time to say it's great, or terrible, or otherwise.
  • Kobuntura moved to narrow tolerance
  • Trith moved to broad tolerance
  • Species with few policy likes/dislikes gained some extra
  • Removed imperial palace/military command from dislikes of the playable species
With likes/dislikes I aimed for policy/buildings that didn't already have a long list of Species, but still fit.

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LienRag
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Re: Species balancing

#68 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:57 am
  • Kobuntura moved to narrow tolerance
  • Trith moved to broad tolerance
Fine.
Sad about the Kobunturas losing relevance, but for balance it was probably necessary.



wobbly wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:57 am [*]Removed imperial palace/military command from dislikes of the playable species

Good call !
Not sure though that it makes any sense to keep them for any Species, unless we finally switch to a distance-based like/dislike system.
Even if one wants precious fifty-sevens to reach peak stability, no one is going to scratch its Imperial Palace nor Military Command.



wobbly wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:57 am [*]Species with few policy likes/dislikes gained some extra

Not sure about that.
Having Species that you can't please with Policies is a PITA, but also a different challenge to tackle.

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Re: Species balancing

#69 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:32 am
wobbly wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 7:57 am [*]Removed imperial palace/military command from dislikes of the playable species
Good call !
Not sure though that it makes any sense to keep them for any Species, unless we finally switch to a distance-based like/dislike system.
Even if one wants precious fifty-sevens to reach peak stability, no one is going to scratch its Imperial Palace nor Military Command.
Tend to agree with this. Though in theory it could exist on a species that was specifically designed around not having a core building.

It's probably ok leaving the dislike on mu-ursh. Thematically it fits, and while you are never going to abandon your military command for them, it does exist as an option.

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Re: Species balancing

#70 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:56 am It's probably ok leaving the dislike on mu-ursh. Thematically it fits, and while you are never going to abandon your military command for them, it does exist as an option.

Seems reasonable.



wobbly wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:56 am Tend to agree with this. Though in theory it could exist on a species that was specifically designed around not having a core building.

Nice idea, but very hard to balance imho (just go for Conformance and the problem is avoided).

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Re: Species balancing

#71 Post by wobbly »

Updated.
BlueAward wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:33 pm also, no likes/dislikes on Insurgency? Maybe some species could be understood as liking to meddle. Maybe some nice influence species maybe to give them nudge into that weird meta? Abaddoni? dunno
I picked Abaddoni, Fulver (Anarchists), Gyschae (Alternative to direct conflict), Laenfa (sneaky) and Nightsiders (nightsiders).
  • Added likes isolation to some natives. This is for a hypothetical change to native placement that tries to place isolationist species isolated. List is mostly species with guards such as Acirema.
  • Egassem: Fluff says they are feudal and conservative. Added feudalism and conformance to likes.
  • Fulver: Fluff says they are anarchists. Reworked their likes/dislikes to reflect that.
I'd like to try necessity as a like for Fulver, which creates a potential contradiction (as necessity depends on low stability). However, I shuffled their likes/dislikes in such a way that they should be able to reach just above 0 stability without a capital supply connection. Alternatively it can be combined with liberty on colonies with higher stability.

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Re: Species balancing

#72 Post by wobbly »

Also I'd like to give fulver a boost (they seem to suffer a bit) and good industry would be the simplest. However I'd prefer something more interesting if anyone has a good idea here.

Edit: Unlocking generic supplies from start would at least give them their native focus.
Edit2: There's also good pop. They have narrow planet tolerance.

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Re: Species balancing

#73 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 12:05 am Fulver
Unlocking generic supplies from start would at least give them their native focus.
There's also good pop. They have narrow planet tolerance.
I would start with generic supplies.

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Re: Species balancing

#74 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2024 11:52 pm Also I'd like to give fulver a boost (they seem to suffer a bit) and good industry would be the simplest. However I'd prefer something more interesting if anyone has a good idea here.

Edit: Unlocking generic supplies from start would at least give them their native focus.
Edit2: There's also good pop. They have narrow planet tolerance.

Not sure about that.
They do tend to suffer a bit, but they're supposed to have a quite different playstyle than other Species, so just giving them usual boosts like Good Industry or Goog Population seems lame.

Their main disadvantage imho is that they're very difficult to please (note that it's been a while since I played them).
Not bad per se if it makes for specific gameplay, but if it just reduces them to the Conformance/Indoctrination cop-out it's not much fun.

Maybe taylor a very specific set of likes for them ?

But yes, getting them their native focus at start would have some coherence.




wobbly wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2024 11:52 pm
BlueAward wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:33 pm also, no likes/dislikes on Insurgency? Maybe some species could be understood as liking to meddle. Maybe some nice influence species maybe to give them nudge into that weird meta? Abaddoni? dunno
I picked Abaddoni, Fulver (Anarchists), Gyschae (Alternative to direct conflict), Laenfa (sneaky) and Nightsiders (nightsiders).


All liking it ?
Nobody disliking Insurgency ?

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Re: Species balancing

#75 Post by LienRag »

Also, the "Abaddoni, Fulver (Anarchists), Gyschae (Alternative to direct conflict), Laenfa (sneaky) and Nightsiders (nightsiders)" diss is :) :D :mrgreen: :wink:

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