Flux Wave Generator

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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wobbly
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Flux Wave Generator

#1 Post by wobbly »

I'm trying to think of ideas for that core slot on the flux composite. Maybe a single shot low damage target all weapon? All non-flux ships (friend or foe)? Or all fighters? Or all non-shielded?

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stpa
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#2 Post by stpa »

yep i would agree that there are too few core slot ship parts at the moment. maybe make some sort of gaseous-life-detector-or-exterminator-slotmachine? bla bla bla 'the flux wave generator induces harmonic oscillations in the metallic hydrogen core of gas giants, which can be either detected by other ships of the fleet and interpreted like a tomography image to find gaseous life, or if set to full power will render gaseous beings helpless in preparation for an invasion' or somesuch.
see also https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... 1018542622

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LienRag
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#3 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:49 am a single shot low damage target all weapon? All non-flux ships (friend or foe)?
Oooh, sounds nice !

Ophiuchus
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:49 am I'm trying to think of ideas for that core slot on the flux composite. Maybe a single shot low damage target all weapon? All non-flux ships (friend or foe)? Or all fighters? Or all non-shielded?
Love it. Very themetical. If it is low-damage direct weapon, shields will protect against it anyway.

You could also install it on a non-flux ship design if you a) have shields, b) good structure c) dont mind being blown to bits.

We could also do the wave like mines work using a FOCS effect, so not in-combat, but afterwards (in that case one can damage all ships in the system).

If it is a - should it generate a single wave? and when? Suggestion targets non-flux ships and fighters, only shooting in bout 2, 24shots with 12damage each (total 288 damage; mass driver 4 does 144 total damage), costs as much as two mass drivers.

So the military role would be mostly to take down fighters in second bout.

Another idea: let it decrease launch bay capacity of all non-flux carriers (but maybe that should be a different core part?). That will not apply in the first turn of battle.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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LienRag
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#5 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:36 pm So the military role would be mostly to take down fighters in second bout.
One single ship with that part would render all Flak moot, so what's the point ?
This part certainly should not hit fighters at all.

What's strategic about destroying hundreds fighters with one shot ?

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Oberlus
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#6 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:58 pm What's strategic about destroying hundreds fighters with one shot ?
24 fighters (if all shots hit on fighters and none on ships), like 8 flaks with average pilots, 6 if good pilots, 5 if great, 4 if ultimate.
And takes up a core part.

What would be the PP cost?

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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:58 pm This part certainly should not hit fighters at all.
true, but only in the interpretation that it hits all targets, so the one effect-triggered one; for the combat based one see below
Oberlus wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:50 pm
LienRag wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:58 pm What's strategic about destroying hundreds fighters with one shot ?
24 fighters (if all shots hit on fighters and none on ships), like 8 flaks with average pilots, 6 if good pilots, 5 if great, 4 if ultimate.
And takes up a core part.

What would be the PP cost?
a flak (or arc disruptor) can take down a lot more fighters than the usual 3 (actually up to 9 per battle, but of course that has not so much alpha/allows the fighters to do damage). Also you can partly side-step the second bout with other launch patterns (e.g. launching half of your fighters in the first bout)

And i intended it also to kill off your own fighters (because they are not flux-synched), so you would loose a part of that option.

I thought PP cost to be 40 (like arc disruptor or two mass drivers or two flak). We can make it a bit more expensive and up the damage per shot also if the flak capacity is too high.

We could also let it shoot in bout three. That would tie in with a stealthed flux fleet revealing itself in close range. Not sure I like it.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Oberlus
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#8 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:32 pm a flak (or arc disruptor) can take down a lot more fighters than the usual 3 (actually up to 9 per battle, but of course that has not so much alpha/allows the fighters to do damage). Also you can partly side-step the second bout with other launch patterns (e.g. launching half of your fighters in the first bout)

And i intended it also to kill off your own fighters (because they are not flux-synched), so you would loose a part of that option.

I thought PP cost to be 40 (like arc disruptor or two mass drivers or two flak).
If it only shots on bout 2, 40 PP seems good. If it shots also on bout 4, make it 50 PP (or 60).

wobbly
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#9 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:50 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 10:32 pm a flak (or arc disruptor) can take down a lot more fighters than the usual 3 (actually up to 9 per battle, but of course that has not so much alpha/allows the fighters to do damage). Also you can partly side-step the second bout with other launch patterns (e.g. launching half of your fighters in the first bout)

And i intended it also to kill off your own fighters (because they are not flux-synched), so you would loose a part of that option.

I thought PP cost to be 40 (like arc disruptor or two mass drivers or two flak).
If it only shots on bout 2, 40 PP seems good. If it shots also on bout 4, make it 50 PP (or 60).
I guess single or double shot depends on what level of arc disruptor tech it needs to compete with.

wobbly
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#10 Post by wobbly »

Some of the finer details probably come down to playtesting. Bout 2 & 4 has a nice charge/fire pattern.

Both 1 or 2 shot seems fine depending on which balances better.

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LienRag
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#11 Post by LienRag »

I really vote on targeting all non-flux ships but not targetting fighters, that'll make the Flux Wave much more original and working differently from other weapons.

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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#12 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:21 pm I really vote on targeting all non-flux ships but not targetting fighters, that'll make the Flux Wave much more original and working differently from other weapons.
In my opinion the targeting of fighters does not change the "originality" of the wave generator - if it targets fighters it is working more like disruptors, if it does not target fighters, it is more like the main direct weapon line. So please be more specific what you mean. And what kind of fleet composition/interaction do you imagine.

Gamewise, my main gripe about not targeting fighters means that is very easy to counter the weapon. For arc disruptor, if the other one equips shields, it still is able to take out fighters (which are cost efficient). So if not targeting fighters, we should either make the generator very cost efficient (e.g. doubling the damage against non-shields) or make it able to penetrate shields (fewer hits higher damage), but not sure that fits the wave fluff so well.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

wobbly
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#13 Post by wobbly »

It'll be unique either way as it can target your own fighters/non-flux ships. I'd personally like to see the damage stay below shield level. Shields need more love.
LienRag wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:58 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:36 pm So the military role would be mostly to take down fighters in second bout.
One single ship with that part would render all Flak moot, so what's the point ?
This part certainly should not hit fighters at all.

What's strategic about destroying hundreds fighters with one shot ?
Etty/Fulver Flak guns fire 4 shots/round, Eawax Flaks fire 5 shots/rounds. Flak guns are cheap and reliable (guaranteed to target fighters). Most symbiot and asteroid carrier designs launch fighter twice, e.g. a 2nd wave of fighters after the flux wave triggers.

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LienRag
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#14 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:43 am So please be more specific what you mean.
A flux weapon that hits ALL ships (friend or foe) alike is very different from what we have.
If it destroys ALL fighters also, I don't see how it can be balanced; and if it only has a number of hits then it's like other multi-shots weapons (flak and arc disruptor), so not really original.

What makes it interesting if it hits all ships is that there's no price that will make it cost-efficient or not cost-efficient : against one ship it will be totally inefficient compared to its price, against one thousand ships (and if the ship bearing it survives) it will be the most cost-efficient weapons of all the game.

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:43 am Gamewise, my main gripe about not targeting fighters means that is very easy to counter the weapon. For arc disruptor, if the other one equips shields, it still is able to take out fighters (which are cost efficient). So if not targeting fighters, we should either make the generator very cost efficient (e.g. doubling the damage against non-shields) or make it able to penetrate shields (fewer hits higher damage), but not sure that fits the wave fluff so well.
Third option if it is technically possible considering the back-end : all surviving Flux Waves combine in one shot (maybe with a declining return, like for RIS and Solarweb ?).
So with one ship, it will not damage even Acirema shields, but getting the right number of Flux Waves would allow to bypass even Blackshields.

wobbly
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Re: Flux Wave Generator

#15 Post by wobbly »

Looking at this again (As its another way to incentive shields).

A pure bomber or striker squad with no policies is 2 fighters/ship. e.g. 12 shots = approx. 8 fighters or 2 flak guns with good pilots. I lean towards:

50 PP, 12 shots x 2 damage (12 with standard game rules). Fires rounds 2 and 4. Targets all non-planet/non-flux hull. Targets friendlies and non-visible.

Unlocked by flux lance + force field

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