what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

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stpa
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what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#1 Post by stpa »

special definition files ECCENTRIC_ORBIT.focs and TIDAL_LOCK.focs both explicitely exclude asteroids and gas giants.

why?

question came up over there in the nightsiders-pr with proposed possible answer by agrrr3:

> probably because these are not standard environments and it was not possible to settle these. maybe thats not valid anymore.

i'd agree with the assessment, that that is no longer valid, if that was the original motivation. i would like to just remove the restriction on planet type from those two specials. edit; okay maybe locked rotation really makes no sense for roids. but the other three restrictions?

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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#2 Post by LienRag »

How do you tidally lock an asteroid belt ?

For eccentric orbit, I'm less sure...

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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

Question here is still what will happen if we allow those environments.

I imagine for gas giants we will only have Sly as a good species which can colonize. We can have a lot of native species which cant colonize in future, but still you cant "move" those to planets with a special.
So if we do not do some specific stuff I guess only with access to Sly one can use those specials which kind of sucks.
We could add a void entity species which is not able to procreate but able to "teleport" as entity to another gas giant. Adding a super-stealthy native species as alternative to Sly for peaceful distributed expansion? A species which needs that kind of special (so we would add it to the native homeworld) in order to be able to colonize would also work.
Any other ideas to keep gas giants mostly free for peaceful distributed expansion?

I am not so sure of exobots/asteroids. Maybe somebody else can comment.

Also how does the probability of specials actually work, if we allow more environments does that mean there will be probably more specials (those added on GG and roids) or that the same amount of specials is distributed between more environments?
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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#4 Post by stpa »

at the moment, during universe creation it just picks systems at random (galaxy setup enum with four values: none, low, mid, max, which i wanted to expand upon anyways) and then picks planets at random (applying a probability according to setup enum) and then picks at random one of all native species for whom this is an adequate environment. that's it, at the moment. has as consequence: frequency of natives placement per species depends on relative frequency of planet type (i.e. most are roids & gg's) and then how many species are comfortable in that environment (which is in master none at all for roids & gg's but in nightsider-pr each only one species, namely the Celestephyte and Thenian)

what i wanted to introduce as additional options would be some sort of clickable tree with species according to metabolism or target environment, where you could then opt in or out to get those types of natives, and then i'd think about either more evenly distributing number of worlds per native species independent of environment frequencies so you wouldnt get more of the one native only because their type of habitat is more common, or maybe put a spawnlimit in the species files like with specials, so there can only be so many at most, or .. but all that is not really on topic for this thread .. maybe i can just change the title of the thread then

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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#5 Post by stpa »

seems i cant or didnt find how in less than a minute, which meens i cant

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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#6 Post by Ophiuchus »

stpa wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:24 pm at the moment, during universe creation it just picks systems at random ...at random one of all native species...
i meant more how specials are created, not species; for your ideas about species placement, open another topic i
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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#7 Post by LienRag »

I believe it picks the planet first and then chooses the available Specials.
When I tried my Asteroid Fungus (whose FOCS never worked alas) I had quite a lot on the Galaxy Map.

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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#8 Post by stpa »

LienRag wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:15 pm How do you tidally lock an asteroid belt ?
i think you do not, so this one stays probably.
LienRag wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:15 pm For eccentric orbit, I'm less sure...
we have some of those in our own sol system out there in the real world as far as i seem to recall. quick web search shows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_ ... and_groups we have 'families' of asteroids sorted by eccentricity and inclination. if it can happen here, can happen at fictional stars as well, so i propose to strike that restriction from the eccentic orbit special focs at least.


as for gas giants. the first exoplanets discovered were GGs, and some were waaay closer to their stars than was thought possible before, with yearleangths of only a few days. seems to me, some possibility of tidal lockage should not be dismissed out of hand. another quick web search, and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking --> "However, since stars are gaseous bodies that can rotate with a different rate at different latitudes, the tidal lock is with Tau Boötis's magnetic field" --> so no tidal lock but maybe magnetic lock .. hm new special coming up maybe.

and eccentric exo-gg's? the web says: https://news.mit.edu/2016/highly-eccent ... lanet-0328 --> eccentric gas giants are a fact of science.

so .. if there is no veto, i'd remove planet type restrictions from eccentric orbit special, leave the tidal lock as is, and maybe introduce magnetic lock special for gas giants.

on a tangent: how about moons on gas giants? some possible colonization targets in sol system (the real one) are orbiting gas giants, e.g. titan (is colonized in star trek, red dwarf, and others), ganymede (in the expanse), etc. - yeah i know, this is off topic.

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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#9 Post by Oberlus »

stpa wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:18 pm so .. if there is no veto, i'd remove planet type restrictions from eccentric orbit special, leave the tidal lock as is, and maybe introduce magnetic lock special for gas giants.
+1
stpa wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:18 pm on a tangent: how about moons on gas giants? some possible colonization targets in sol system (the real one) are orbiting gas giants, e.g. titan (is colonized in star trek, red dwarf, and others), ganymede (in the expanse), etc. - yeah i know, this is off topic.
I think engine doesn't support moons as actual planets.
Maybe specials that increase population of the planet when a policy is adopted (lunar cities) / a tech is researched (moon habitation) / a building is built (moon colonization). But they would be the GG's species with this way.
Edit: oh, you mean resonant moon, nothing fancy? Why not.

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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

stpa wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:18 pm... in sol system (the real one)...
this is not really important, the gameplay consequences are what counts. usually one can bend or reinvent the fluff to fit the intended purpose.

nobody commented on gameplay on asteroids. if exobots stay prime species for asteroids or there is enough choice so access is common, I'd say it is ok to add those specials as you suggest.

for gas giants it is ok to add those if you intend to add some species which can use it while keeping the gas giants clean in general for the hidden peaceful expansionists (Sly).

still dont know if we should change something about spawn probability. i guess it does not matter too much.

on the side issue: resonant moon is only increasing ship and building stealth, so i think it does not create any balance problems to allow it on gas giants.
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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#11 Post by stpa »

while i am at it. as i sayed, there will be more upcoming species on roids than just exobots and Thenian, and there will be more species on gasgiants than just sly and Celestephyte. or other way round. and looks like at least some of these 23 exceptions might be removed as well.

(edit; attaching pictures with question mark in the name does not work)
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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#12 Post by stpa »

i'd remove GG-restriction from: PLANET_DRIVE, COMPUTRONIUM, FORTRESS, RESONANT_MOON, TEMPO_ANIMoLY
and i'd remove roids-restriction from: TEMPANO, SCRYING, ANCIENT_RUINS, MINERALS

is that okay?

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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#13 Post by wobbly »

Personally not a fan of seeing a lot of specials on asteroids and GGs, though not necessarily adverse to them having special or any particular special. Maybe ok with just a lower probability.

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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#14 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:13 am Personally not a fan of seeing a lot of specials on asteroids and GGs, though not necessarily adverse to them having special or any particular special. Maybe ok with just a lower probability.
could you please formulate why you dont like them there?
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Re: what about Tidally Locked Rotation & Eccentric Orbit for roids and GGs?

#15 Post by Ophiuchus »

stpa wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:04 am i'd remove GG-restriction from: PLANET_DRIVE, COMPUTRONIUM, FORTRESS, RESONANT_MOON, TEMPO_ANIMoLY
and i'd remove roids-restriction from: TEMPANO, SCRYING, ANCIENT_RUINS, MINERALS

is that okay?
planet drive on GG, ok I guess. fluff-wise they could be too heavy/big to be moved.

fortress on GG, not ok. is not fitting the gas giant theme (which is: there-should-be-no-species).

the other three are okayish.

the asteroid belts have a description "problem" (or complexity). Usually the specials are about planets which sounds strange if the description calls an asteroid belt "planet".

for asteroids the scrying sphere and ancient ruins feels okayish. not sure if e.g. exobots are able to use the anomaly effectively.

what do you mean by minerals?
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