Detection Range and Strength

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#16 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:36 pm geoff, Can you offer any input on feasability of showing different icons / tooltip text for the same meter?
Probably possible, but I'm not sure exactly what you want.

BlueAward
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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#17 Post by BlueAward »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:35 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:36 pm geoff, Can you offer any input on feasability of showing different icons / tooltip text for the same meter?
Probably possible, but I'm not sure exactly what you want.
When I hover over the detection icon for a monster or native planet, I get info that it is "Detection Range", but then it leaves the question open - what is the detection strength? I've just learned here these are the same for those neutral forces, and when you think about it then indeed "Detection Range" makes no sense for them. So the tooltip should say "Detection Strength" for those instead of "Range" and it would be obvious

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Oberlus
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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#18 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:39 pm With current content, I think detection range does not mean anything for monsters and neutrals, so it could actually read "Detection Strength".
BlueAward wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:18 pm When I hover over the detection icon for a monster or native planet, I get info that it is "Detection Range", but then it leaves the question open - what is the detection strength? I've just learned here these are the same for those neutral forces, and when you think about it then indeed "Detection Range" makes no sense for them. So the tooltip should say "Detection Strength" for those instead of "Range" and it would be obvious
Some monsters do have a detection range. Please, check out the macros HUNT_SHIPS and HUNT_PLANETS: some monsters do react to what is within their detection range.

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... macros#L69

So, please, just make the tooltip for the detection icon of monsters to show that it refers to both strength and range, and for the owned ships show that it refers to only ship's detection range, and that the strength is that of the empire.

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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#19 Post by BlueAward »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:59 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:39 pm With current content, I think detection range does not mean anything for monsters and neutrals, so it could actually read "Detection Strength".
BlueAward wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:18 pm When I hover over the detection icon for a monster or native planet, I get info that it is "Detection Range", but then it leaves the question open - what is the detection strength? I've just learned here these are the same for those neutral forces, and when you think about it then indeed "Detection Range" makes no sense for them. So the tooltip should say "Detection Strength" for those instead of "Range" and it would be obvious
Some monsters do have a detection range. Please, check out the macros HUNT_SHIPS and HUNT_PLANETS: some monsters do react to what is within their detection range.
Ooh nice, so snowflakes hunt other ships and dragons hunt planets, fair enough. Suppose this means snowflake could be herded a bit, while dragon... Is it possible that once it sniffs some empire and finds two systems close enough to fit its detection range, a dragon just jumps between the two until you build repeller or kill it or hide yo planets?

(And what, dragons activate nova bombs?)

BTW that is another surprise thing I am just learning, this monster behavior

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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#20 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:59 am So, please, just make the tooltip for the detection icon of monsters to show that it refers to both strength and range, and for the owned ships show that it refers to only ship's detection range, and that the strength is that of the empire.

yeah, I think we'd need something like three compositional icons:
  • neutral objects: detection strength+range ; e.g. an eye surrounded by a scanning aura
  • detection empire meter: detection strength ; e.g. the eye (without the scanning aura)
  • empire objects: detection range ; e.g. a hole with the shape of the eye surrounded by the scanning aura
edit1: sorry, i misread oberlus post, thinking he was talking suddenly about icons, not tooltips
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#21 Post by Oberlus »

BlueAward wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:27 am Is it possible that once it sniffs some empire and finds two systems close enough to fit its detection range, a dragon just jumps between the two until you build repeller or kill it or hide yo planets?
Yes. Some randomness to give chances to move away from preferred targets would be good.
Also, this made me realize there is no "HUNT_POPULATION" macro for monsters to look for people to kill (instead of just planets, that can be empty, or buildings, since there can be colonies with no buildings).

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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#22 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:10 am yeah, I think we'd need something like three compositional icons:
  • neutral objects: detection strength+range ; e.g. an eye surrounded by a scanning aura
  • detection empire meter: detection strength ; e.g. the eye (without the scanning aura)
  • empire objects: detection range ; e.g. a hole with the shape of the eye surrounded by the scanning aura
In my experience, the meaning of the icons of any kind of GUI are learnt after you find them.
It's true that there are very common and well-established conventions for certain icons (like ON/OFF in electrical appliances). But most of them are absolutely void of knowledge for whoever finds them.

The meaning of the Stealth icon in FO, I know what it is only after I read the tooltip. Only then I thought "oh, it makes sense how they draw this icon". But I was not going to know the meaning only from first sight of the icon.

So, while I think it is commendable to improve the UI as much as one can, I still think 99% of the people will read the tooltip first then know the meaning/purpose of the icon, no matter how great are the icons you devise.

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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#23 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:22 am I still think 99% of the people will read the tooltip first then know the meaning/purpose of the icon, no matter how great are the icons you devise.
yes, we are still in agreement the tooltips are more important. side note: some people need years to find the tooltips. anyway if you want to continue that discussion loop, please look up a few posts in this thread.
Oberlus wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:17 am
BlueAward wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:27 am Is it possible that once it sniffs some empire and finds two systems close enough to fit its detection range, a dragon just jumps between the two until you build repeller or kill it or hide yo planets?
Yes. Some randomness to give chances to move away from preferred targets would be good.
Also, this made me realize there is no "HUNT_POPULATION" macro for monsters to look for people to kill (instead of just planets, that can be empty, or buildings, since there can be colonies with no buildings).
cosmic dragon has 50 detection, hunting in that range does make too much sense. how about including 1 hop planets?

also the macros should use *NumberOf instead of Number, else they choose multiple targets and set destination multiple times.

also note the stacking group is weird; it is applied on the targets, so currently it means the first monster marks all possible targets that no other monster my hunt there.
if something like that is intended, the *NumberOf condition should check the stackinggroup (and I think we would need to implement that, probably a good thing to have)
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Oberlus
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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#24 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:01 am yes, we are still in agreement the tooltips are more important. side note: some people need years to find the tooltips. anyway if you want to continue that discussion loop, please look up a few posts in this thread.
My point was to not delay the fixing of the tooltips while thinking on fashion ways of how to have different icons for same meter, plus wating for someone to draw the icons.
Not interested on any loop discussion in any case. Nothing else to add. EOL.

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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#25 Post by BlueAward »

Cosmic dragon, I think I have not seen that one before, actually looking at the pedia on it, it does say about star destruction, it has Nova Bomb etc. Does this dragon actually show up? Is it something for the "tower defense" games or something? Looks really scary. Maybe good that its hunting range is 50 uu or else it could really mess somebody's empire, real good

What I saw before was Vacuum Dragon which is tamer beast in comparison - got slightly confused between the two

Anyway the tooltip says detection range and nothing about strength, I suppose I did not care that much about icon, the same icon is used for empire detection strength and detection range and that did not bother me, but it did bother me that I could not figure out detection strength of a monster! And it's still not clear to me if there is anything that affects monster's or native planet's detection range, and therefore detection strength.. Stellar interference does not seem to affect them for instance

EDIT: I mean for planets are those specials that do it, fortifications or technological advancement, but is there anything more dynamic

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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#26 Post by Ophiuchus »

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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#27 Post by BlueAward »

Yo, I found the more dynamic case - when a monster enters a nebula it gets -20 detection, for a player it is only detection range and strength remains the same (stealth of stuff in the nebula raises instead) but what, it is detection strength for monster? So for poor little monster not only its detection strength gets lowered, but stealth of enemies is raised! Such imbalance for poor krakens and the lot!;)

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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#28 Post by LienRag »

AFAIK you misunderstood : only initial Range and Strength are linked.
Situational diminution of Range doesn't change Strength.

But yes, it's not really clearly explained anywhere...

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Re: Detection Range and Strength

#29 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:47 pm AFAIK you misunderstood : only initial Range and Strength are linked.
Situational diminution of Range doesn't change Strength.

But yes, it's not really clearly explained anywhere...
There is no distinction between situational and non-situational effects. There is just SetDetection, that changes the Detection meter (of a ship or a monster).
An owned ship has the detection strength of the empire's meter (which is a different meter), and the detection range of its own Detection meter.
An unwoned ship only has Detection meter, and uses that value in their HUNT_SOMETHING macros to decide if it detects or not something else.

Since an Ion Storm does SetDetection value = Value - 40 and it affects everything but other fields, monsters have both less detection range and strength (while owned ships doesn't).
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... xt#L28-L37

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