What about making the ai player races and minor races the same as Impaler says, with no penalty's and with normal AI.
We just give the minor races a negative tech tree, so they have to go through various ages, until they get to the tech tree we use. So in the end they will move out of minor race mode and become a normal race, ie they gain colony ship tech and other important tech.
They would not have to have actual technologies to research before getting proper techs like colony ships. They would research through different ages, like age of empires, but simpler.
-Each Age is a technology, costing research points to research.
-Stone - 10
-Classical - 20
-Medieval -30
-Renosance - 40
-Industrial - 60
-Information - 90
-Space - 150
Then they can research the normal tech tree, ie colony ships.
minor/magnate civs?
Moderator: Oberlus
Just FYI--
I suspect we'll simply have to support 'NPC Empires' in the code, such that the specific strengths, advantages, and disadvantages would be left up to the module creators for whatever scenario/campaign is being built. So if you didn't want them, you wouldn't have to deal with them.
I suspect we'll simply have to support 'NPC Empires' in the code, such that the specific strengths, advantages, and disadvantages would be left up to the module creators for whatever scenario/campaign is being built. So if you didn't want them, you wouldn't have to deal with them.
Surprise and Terror! I am greeted by the smooth and hostile face of our old enemy, the Hootmans! No... the Huge-glands, no, I remember, the Hunams!
Hello all,
about minor races: Did anyone of you play "Birth of the Federation" ?
It's not really good compared to Moo2, but it has some good ideas.
It has all the Trek minor races like Vulcans and Binaar and whatnot as spacefearing people that have 1 system colonized to various degrees.
What this does is it makes diplomacy a viable path to victory, and would even do so in Multiplayer games! If you can get these minor races to join your empire freely (which takes time and money) you get their resources in ships and colonized planets. Orn if you conquer them (which is much quicker) you will not get their ships (destroyed by you) and the planets will be bombareded and less valuable. Both ways are possible and diplomacy can help you expand quite quickly.
As this was the only game (out of many) I ever played in which diplomacy was worthwhile I would really like to see this feature implemented into FreeOrion.
Feador
PS I hope you succed to give Moo back its good name
about minor races: Did anyone of you play "Birth of the Federation" ?
It's not really good compared to Moo2, but it has some good ideas.
It has all the Trek minor races like Vulcans and Binaar and whatnot as spacefearing people that have 1 system colonized to various degrees.
What this does is it makes diplomacy a viable path to victory, and would even do so in Multiplayer games! If you can get these minor races to join your empire freely (which takes time and money) you get their resources in ships and colonized planets. Orn if you conquer them (which is much quicker) you will not get their ships (destroyed by you) and the planets will be bombareded and less valuable. Both ways are possible and diplomacy can help you expand quite quickly.
As this was the only game (out of many) I ever played in which diplomacy was worthwhile I would really like to see this feature implemented into FreeOrion.
Feador
PS I hope you succed to give Moo back its good name
So what do people think about this (above quote).utilae wrote:What about making the ai player races and minor races the same as Impaler says, with no penalty's and with normal AI.
We just give the minor races a negative tech tree, so they have to go through various ages, until they get to the tech tree we use. So in the end they will move out of minor race mode and become a normal race, ie they gain colony ship tech and other important tech.
They would not have to have actual technologies to research before getting proper techs like colony ships. They would research through different ages, like age of empires, but simpler.
-Each Age is a technology, costing research points to research.
-Stone - 10
-Classical - 20
-Medieval -30
-Renosance - 40
-Industrial - 60
-Information - 90
-Space - 150
Then they can research the normal tech tree, ie colony ships.
It would be cool, minor races would be a little behind in tech (they don't even have space travel) and they would go through 'ages' similar to age of empires.
Isn't this basically what I proposed earlier in this same thread?utilae wrote: So what do people think about this (above quote).
It would be cool, minor races would be a little behind in tech (they don't even have space travel) and they would go through 'ages' similar to age of empires.
It's on page two. Anyway, really that's the way to do it, I think.the ideas of having a different tech tree for minor races is fine....I just think that the human player should be able to play any race in the game...even if they can't colonize systems or leave their homeworld.
By allowing a human to play any one of the races in the game, it opens the door for more replayability.
By allowing a human to play any one of the races in the game, it opens the door for more replayability.
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Bastian-Bux
- Creative Contributor
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 6:32 am
- Location: Kassel / Germany
What about lopping off the top of the tech tree, so that a minor is limited to speed 1 engines, neutron pellet guns, etc.
Either this method or the stone-age to space-age method would require player-specific tech trees. Has that conversation already taken place?
- Kevin
Either this method or the stone-age to space-age method would require player-specific tech trees. Has that conversation already taken place?
- Kevin
What is done out of love always occurs beyond good and evil.
- Nietzsche
- Nietzsche
Well, I was thinking we'd have a normal tech tree, while the minor race would have a tiny tech tree attached to the bottom of the normal tech tree. So they have to spend time going through 'age' type techs to catch up, eventually once they get through the 'age' techs (which do nothing but keep them behind in tech), they can use the normal tech tree, were they could research technologies that help them expand, etc. Essentially they will be far behind us (the player) in tech.
Yes, I understand the 'age' type techs. I was just suggesting a different mechanism for stunting a normal race to make it a minor. Your method gives a 'slow start', mine gives a 'quick stop'. IMO the two methods would give slightly different flavors to the game, and could both be used (even in the same game, and even on the same race).
If the tech tree has different, independent fields, either of these methods could be used to make 'idiot savant' races, which are OK in one area, but hopelessly behind in others. Could make for some fun scenarios / mods.
Will players be able to take 'picks' to customize their race, or will this be a mod-level activity? 'Primitive Race' ('age' techs) and 'Limited Tech' (severely pruned tech tree) could be major negative picks.
Or is my suggestion a duplicate of something already under discussion as 'Uncreative' or some such?
- Kevin
If the tech tree has different, independent fields, either of these methods could be used to make 'idiot savant' races, which are OK in one area, but hopelessly behind in others. Could make for some fun scenarios / mods.
Will players be able to take 'picks' to customize their race, or will this be a mod-level activity? 'Primitive Race' ('age' techs) and 'Limited Tech' (severely pruned tech tree) could be major negative picks.
Or is my suggestion a duplicate of something already under discussion as 'Uncreative' or some such?
- Kevin
What is done out of love always occurs beyond good and evil.
- Nietzsche
- Nietzsche
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Ablaze
- Creative Contributor
- Posts: 314
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:10 pm
- Location: Amidst the Inferno.
Let me get this straight, if you don’t mind, utilae.
In your system a minor race looks and acts just like a normal race but is lower in the tech tree. So you could have, say.. the Ugmorrs (Sentient rocks with an aversion to water) kick your butt in one game and the next game decide that they are going to be a minor race. Upon meeting these stone-age rock beasts in your new game you park your FTL ships over their planet and mercilessly play ocean sounds day and night until you drive them all nuts.
That sound about right?
It seems to me that you aren’t talking so much about a sub-tech tree, but just extending the tech tree down further and starting most races above those puny foundation techs.
In your system a minor race looks and acts just like a normal race but is lower in the tech tree. So you could have, say.. the Ugmorrs (Sentient rocks with an aversion to water) kick your butt in one game and the next game decide that they are going to be a minor race. Upon meeting these stone-age rock beasts in your new game you park your FTL ships over their planet and mercilessly play ocean sounds day and night until you drive them all nuts.
That sound about right?
It seems to me that you aren’t talking so much about a sub-tech tree, but just extending the tech tree down further and starting most races above those puny foundation techs.
Time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas.
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Bastian-Bux
- Creative Contributor
- Posts: 215
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 6:32 am
- Location: Kassel / Germany
Right Ablaze.
I'm definitely against a "bonsai tech tree" for minor races. If they start at the very roots of the tech tree, ok. But They should be able to become competitive with the majors as well. I think LDE (least developed empires) is a better name for them as minors
.
This way even master players have something to boost about: "hey did you already win the game playing a LDE? I did."
I'm definitely against a "bonsai tech tree" for minor races. If they start at the very roots of the tech tree, ok. But They should be able to become competitive with the majors as well. I think LDE (least developed empires) is a better name for them as minors
.This way even master players have something to boost about: "hey did you already win the game playing a LDE? I did."
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Impaler
- Creative Contributor
- Posts: 1060
- Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:40 am
- Location: Tucson, Arizona USA
This is much like how Moo2 alows you to chosse your starting tec level, but rather then being game wide it would be individual to each race.
I like this idea, first off its realistic, our civalization has been in this modern tecnological state only a hundred years vs millenia of stone age and pre-indistirial ages. The chances of meeting an alien race with the same relative tecnology level (as in Star Trek) is vanishingly small. Second its a clever way of handycapping a multi-player game. If a few freinds want to play a game but some of them are total newbs then you could start the skilled people at some kind of Pre-Warp level to slow them down a bit. And lastly is sets up intresting diplomatic situations as was previously stated. Imperialism (the game) had some interesting features that delt with major and minor powers. The only thing was that who was a major and who was a minor was set at game creation. Under this system its logical that a race that starts out behind could come to dominate. So we want our diplomatic engine to be sophisticated enough to take all this stuff into account. Lastly their needs to be a good reason for a major power to not simply anialate the minor power on a whim or to take their planet. Their needs to be something that a patheticaly backwards alie can contribute to a stronger empire (soldiars, tribute, primitive artwork, leather shoes?). If not you will just be keeping the minors around out of generosity which is not a very fun game play mechanic.
I like this idea, first off its realistic, our civalization has been in this modern tecnological state only a hundred years vs millenia of stone age and pre-indistirial ages. The chances of meeting an alien race with the same relative tecnology level (as in Star Trek) is vanishingly small. Second its a clever way of handycapping a multi-player game. If a few freinds want to play a game but some of them are total newbs then you could start the skilled people at some kind of Pre-Warp level to slow them down a bit. And lastly is sets up intresting diplomatic situations as was previously stated. Imperialism (the game) had some interesting features that delt with major and minor powers. The only thing was that who was a major and who was a minor was set at game creation. Under this system its logical that a race that starts out behind could come to dominate. So we want our diplomatic engine to be sophisticated enough to take all this stuff into account. Lastly their needs to be a good reason for a major power to not simply anialate the minor power on a whim or to take their planet. Their needs to be something that a patheticaly backwards alie can contribute to a stronger empire (soldiars, tribute, primitive artwork, leather shoes?). If not you will just be keeping the minors around out of generosity which is not a very fun game play mechanic.
Fear is the Mind Killer - Frank Herbert -Dune