I was figuring that 90% of the wealth wasn't just disappearing, but that it was going to things that this game wasn't concerned with, like cataloging the position of every molecule in their solar system.
Anyway, you're both right: The best way to model lethargy would be within the AI. I was just trying to come up with a very understandable model that would prove that it could be done.
Ancients - more than dust and ruins?
Moderator: Oberlus
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EntropyAvatar
- Space Kraken
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:28 pm
If the ancients are strictly computer players, then we could design their behavior so they aren't an overwhelming threat.
On the other hand, if the ancients are meant to be playable, I don't think even a 90% after-maintenance cut would do it. I would just take my starting scout with plasma cannons and lvl XII shields and do a little 'first/last contact' with the other empires. Balancing such an asymetric situation for human players would be very tricky.
On the other hand, if the ancients are meant to be playable, I don't think even a 90% after-maintenance cut would do it. I would just take my starting scout with plasma cannons and lvl XII shields and do a little 'first/last contact' with the other empires. Balancing such an asymetric situation for human players would be very tricky.
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Ablaze
- Creative Contributor
- Posts: 314
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:10 pm
- Location: Amidst the Inferno.
I don't think the ancients should be playable, or if they are played then questions of game balance should no longer be asked. Any mechanism for crippling an ancient race that would balance out the advantage that race starts with would be extremely tedious to play under. It would essentially amount to requiring the player to click next turn 10 or 20 times before they could get anything done.
Perhaps ancient races should be playable, but only by using cheat codes.
Perhaps ancient races should be playable, but only by using cheat codes.
Time flies like the wind, fruit flies like bananas.
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Voice In the Wilderness
- Space Floater
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:58 am
Regarding post 1, in Babylon 5, there were essentially two groups of races the unofficially named 'younger races' and the First Ones, the god-like races that were Billions of years more advanced (organic tech, planetkillers, etc).
The Minbari were the most advanced of the younger races, so much so that they were part of an unofficial third group in the middle, called "the Middle Children", most advanced of the younger races, but not yet godlike like the First Ones.
The Vorlon, Shadows, and other First Ones were BILLIONS of years old, while the younger races (Humans, Narn, Centauri, Drazi, Brakiri etc.) all achieved spaceflight only in the last 300 years at the most.
The Minbari, however, had large space fleets 1,000 years ago. Clearly, more advanced than any other younger race.
To put it in perspective, the First Ones are the "adult races", and Earthers, etc. are maybe 10 years old. The Minbari are about 17 years old on this scale. They are the annoying older sibling sidekick, because the fiesty 10 years old Humans are the heros of the story. Just sayin.....
The Minbari were the most advanced of the younger races, so much so that they were part of an unofficial third group in the middle, called "the Middle Children", most advanced of the younger races, but not yet godlike like the First Ones.
The Vorlon, Shadows, and other First Ones were BILLIONS of years old, while the younger races (Humans, Narn, Centauri, Drazi, Brakiri etc.) all achieved spaceflight only in the last 300 years at the most.
The Minbari, however, had large space fleets 1,000 years ago. Clearly, more advanced than any other younger race.
To put it in perspective, the First Ones are the "adult races", and Earthers, etc. are maybe 10 years old. The Minbari are about 17 years old on this scale. They are the annoying older sibling sidekick, because the fiesty 10 years old Humans are the heros of the story. Just sayin.....
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Sandlapper
- Dyson Forest
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 11:50 pm
- Location: South Carolina, USA
Indeed! A great sci-fi series.
I like the idea of an Ancient race, or races. The key is, as mentioned earlier, controlling the use of their advanced tech. Perhaps the Ancient race was once in an ancient war with another ancient race( either still existing, died off, or left the galaxy) and a truce was arranged. As part of the truce, the Ancient race agreed not to expand for x(100,1000,,etc.) number of years. The Ancient race feels honor-bound, with or without the other race still existing, to maintain the truce.
Additionally, we could make all stars systems within one system of their empire, a buffer zone created in the truce. The Ancient cannot colonize these worlds, but otherwise control them, and will destroy any other race trying to colonize them.
Another idea, within say five systems of their own empire, there could be one or more "minor" races(anywhere from stone-age to spaceflight, but not yet ftl capable) that are under the protection of the Ancients. These minor races can research ftl and suddenly pop into the game as another race to contend with, with their homeworld (and only their homeworld) still protected.
Once again, another idea, if nova bombs are allowed, then the use of one within 1-10 systems of the Ancients empire will bring the wrath of the Ancient fleet against the race using it. Say perhaps 1-10 systems destroyed as punishment.
An alternative reason for the Ancients not to expand. During their research of biological components, eons ago, they mistakenly produced a virus that destroys ALL plant life. And for any Ancient to step onto a living planet spells instant doom to the planet. To save the galaxy from the viral plague, they volunteraly stopped their expansion, and isolated themselves from other races. A cure could be added to the tech tree very,very late in the game to allow colonization of Ancient worlds, at some point..
Trade, right to use their space lanes, requests for "humaniterian" aid during a plague or biological attack could be made of the Ancients. Also planetary info for unreachable systems could be aquired.
One last scenario, have two or more Anicients in the truce, not expanding yet.
The Ancients should be a computer AI to maintain the restraints imposed upon them. IF the Ancients are playable, then exstensive programming constraints need to be employed. One advantage to a playable version, the player Ancient could "give" tech to races of it's choice, to help keep one race from excelling over others, until the Ancient is allowed to expand.
I like the idea of an Ancient race, or races. The key is, as mentioned earlier, controlling the use of their advanced tech. Perhaps the Ancient race was once in an ancient war with another ancient race( either still existing, died off, or left the galaxy) and a truce was arranged. As part of the truce, the Ancient race agreed not to expand for x(100,1000,,etc.) number of years. The Ancient race feels honor-bound, with or without the other race still existing, to maintain the truce.
Additionally, we could make all stars systems within one system of their empire, a buffer zone created in the truce. The Ancient cannot colonize these worlds, but otherwise control them, and will destroy any other race trying to colonize them.
Another idea, within say five systems of their own empire, there could be one or more "minor" races(anywhere from stone-age to spaceflight, but not yet ftl capable) that are under the protection of the Ancients. These minor races can research ftl and suddenly pop into the game as another race to contend with, with their homeworld (and only their homeworld) still protected.
Once again, another idea, if nova bombs are allowed, then the use of one within 1-10 systems of the Ancients empire will bring the wrath of the Ancient fleet against the race using it. Say perhaps 1-10 systems destroyed as punishment.
An alternative reason for the Ancients not to expand. During their research of biological components, eons ago, they mistakenly produced a virus that destroys ALL plant life. And for any Ancient to step onto a living planet spells instant doom to the planet. To save the galaxy from the viral plague, they volunteraly stopped their expansion, and isolated themselves from other races. A cure could be added to the tech tree very,very late in the game to allow colonization of Ancient worlds, at some point..
Trade, right to use their space lanes, requests for "humaniterian" aid during a plague or biological attack could be made of the Ancients. Also planetary info for unreachable systems could be aquired.
One last scenario, have two or more Anicients in the truce, not expanding yet.
The Ancients should be a computer AI to maintain the restraints imposed upon them. IF the Ancients are playable, then exstensive programming constraints need to be employed. One advantage to a playable version, the player Ancient could "give" tech to races of it's choice, to help keep one race from excelling over others, until the Ancient is allowed to expand.
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Sidewalker
- Space Floater
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 5:11 am
- Location: Russia, Moscow
There is one sci-fi novel, called "Swords over the stars" (but it not translated in English AFAIK).
The main story line is that aside of many minor civs (humans mostly) there was a great ancient civ of Crimson Lords (genetically developed by Creator/God species, as most super entities) which rules over thousands stars in galaxy, subdues the minor civs, put them in certain caste or destroy them if they couldn't do anything valuable for Crimson Lords. Crimson Lords looks like, you know, demons. Red skin, wings, horns, etc.
So, the human civ met them once and then the great war started. The Conquista. It last for over 2 ages (220 years IIRC). Bla-bla-bla, we wins.
The main plot is:
The minor civs - each have 5-15 worlds, they have alliances, wars, etc.
The Crimson Lords - ANCIENT Ones. They try to conquer everything on their way. Just like, you know, the Crimson Tide... Antarans + world conquering...
The main story line is that aside of many minor civs (humans mostly) there was a great ancient civ of Crimson Lords (genetically developed by Creator/God species, as most super entities) which rules over thousands stars in galaxy, subdues the minor civs, put them in certain caste or destroy them if they couldn't do anything valuable for Crimson Lords. Crimson Lords looks like, you know, demons. Red skin, wings, horns, etc.
So, the human civ met them once and then the great war started. The Conquista. It last for over 2 ages (220 years IIRC). Bla-bla-bla, we wins.
The main plot is:
The minor civs - each have 5-15 worlds, they have alliances, wars, etc.
The Crimson Lords - ANCIENT Ones. They try to conquer everything on their way. Just like, you know, the Crimson Tide... Antarans + world conquering...
zzz...zzzz....zzzzz..... Ahem! 8-0 Who's there?!
Ok heres an idea...
possible "mode" of single player game?
I dont know if you guys ever thought about it but maybe put in "modes" in single player.
For example.
"King of the hill" mode... you would probably grab a star system with maybe an ancient artifact and when you hold it for lets say 30 minutes without losing it at all you win, But if you lose it you lose all research on it and if you grab it again you need to hold it for another 30 minutes since all research is lost.
Another name probably would fit better but its a popular mode of game to play in many other games.
another mode would be the reason why i posted is called well i forget the name of it right now <---idiot
But in this mode of gameplay you start as an old civilization and you are
as you guys were saying aged much older then the "new comers" but the
new comers outnumber you with less technology, so the odd's even out if
you get the idea of it. so you might be a large older race with higher
technology and a decent fleet. BUT you will be fighting off 4 other races in
the universe at once and every battle you lose you are letting them
become larger and have a bigger advantage.
possible "mode" of single player game?
I dont know if you guys ever thought about it but maybe put in "modes" in single player.
For example.
"King of the hill" mode... you would probably grab a star system with maybe an ancient artifact and when you hold it for lets say 30 minutes without losing it at all you win, But if you lose it you lose all research on it and if you grab it again you need to hold it for another 30 minutes since all research is lost.
Another name probably would fit better but its a popular mode of game to play in many other games.
another mode would be the reason why i posted is called well i forget the name of it right now <---idiot
But in this mode of gameplay you start as an old civilization and you are
as you guys were saying aged much older then the "new comers" but the
new comers outnumber you with less technology, so the odd's even out if
you get the idea of it. so you might be a large older race with higher
technology and a decent fleet. BUT you will be fighting off 4 other races in
the universe at once and every battle you lose you are letting them
become larger and have a bigger advantage.
Wow, such an old thread...it was started when I joined.
I think the king of the king thing would be a nice addon or something, but you can't do things in normal time like that, or you get the procrastinator who has 10 min turns and wind in 3 turns, I would say 30 turns, that is about 30 mins if you have 1 min turns, well, that is abit fast, maybe 15 turns.
And that "face the ancients" game, there would have to be a trigger to prevent mass rush by the bigger power and wipe out 2 of the other players in 5 turns.
I think the king of the king thing would be a nice addon or something, but you can't do things in normal time like that, or you get the procrastinator who has 10 min turns and wind in 3 turns, I would say 30 turns, that is about 30 mins if you have 1 min turns, well, that is abit fast, maybe 15 turns.
And that "face the ancients" game, there would have to be a trigger to prevent mass rush by the bigger power and wipe out 2 of the other players in 5 turns.
"The one perfect impossibility is perfection."
Ancient Races should included if necessary at a very late status of development (after 1.0).
To balance the power of this race(s) all the other apsects should included before.
My suggestion even if it would only be a scenario (is this in fact a part of the game ??) would be an ancient senate.
Of course it only works with a huge galaxy and at least 3 to 4 ancient civs.
I would appreciate it this ancients would be arrogant, but avoiding war, because it is not worth it.
With your growing empire you can in the midgame phase join the ancient senat (Another orion sentate should also exist) if you have impressed the ancient races, however.
Maybe than you can influence this races and with your diplomatic skills you can push the ancients, which should be definately more powerful than you at this time, in your directions.
It is also possible that a ai civ can do that.
Just a suggestion how a good scenarion could be.
To balance the power of this race(s) all the other apsects should included before.
My suggestion even if it would only be a scenario (is this in fact a part of the game ??) would be an ancient senate.
Of course it only works with a huge galaxy and at least 3 to 4 ancient civs.
I would appreciate it this ancients would be arrogant, but avoiding war, because it is not worth it.
With your growing empire you can in the midgame phase join the ancient senat (Another orion sentate should also exist) if you have impressed the ancient races, however.
Maybe than you can influence this races and with your diplomatic skills you can push the ancients, which should be definately more powerful than you at this time, in your directions.
It is also possible that a ai civ can do that.
Just a suggestion how a good scenarion could be.
Another possibility is artifacts left by extinct or transcended races. Sheffield's Heritage series explores this idea http://books.fantasticfiction.co.uk/n2/ ... horid=2641. Control of an artifact could give distinct advantages wihout knowing how it works or how to reproduce it. This would make the artifact a tempting target for conquest.