Ship Design

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Bigjoe5
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Re: Ship Design

#91 Post by Bigjoe5 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:11 pm

RonaldX wrote:I follow you here, but you have to consider that if you give it LOTS of slots, both internal (which might be used for buildings, but might be used for tons of stealth/detection/special equipment), and external (which might be used for equipment, but could also be loaded up with massive amounts of LLR), plus the intrinsic high health and relatively high difficulty of capturing/destroying it (not just boarding a ship with marines, but essentially invading a whole planet), you run the risk of creating a nigh-invincible battlestation. I have no objection to worldships equipping weapons and systems, but I feel you have t balance it properly so that players are driven to use them for resource and population management and not for combat.
I agree. Combat ships should always be more efficient at combat, but worldships should still have potential for self-defense comparable to that of a planet - there could be worldships that are as effective as a planet with early-midgame defense and shields, and there could be more expensive ones that are as good as a planet with late-game defense and shields, but even those ones should be much more expensive than a fleet of other ships that yields a similar amount of firepower.
RonaldX wrote:Edit: I'm wondering now if worldships should be equipped with planetary defense systems, or ship defense systems. I think it makes more sense that they should be equipped with defenses in the exact same manner as a planet is, and not really customizable as a ship at all. It kind of has to go one way or the other.
I think it's a lot more interesting and cool if the player can customize his worldships like he can his regular ships, and I don't really see a compelling gameplay reason to do otherwise. This also allows players who didn't go for planetary defense to go after a different option that still allows well-protected population centers.
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Re: Ship Design

#92 Post by RonaldX » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:12 am

Bigjoe5 wrote:I think it's a lot more interesting and cool if the player can customize his worldships like he can his regular ships, and I don't really see a compelling gameplay reason to do otherwise. This also allows players who didn't go for planetary defense to go after a different option that still allows well-protected population centers.
Not going to disagree here.. The problem will be in providing it with enough potential firepower to rival the defensive capabilities of a planet, without making it a mobile fortress. A worldship vs planet deathmatch isn't something I'd want to see.

You almost want to limit their construction so that they are forced to equip the same type of offensive mechanisms a planet uses. Lots of PD and SR weaponry, maybe a few missile racks but no LLR? SLR and LLR but not PD? Worldships need a decisive weakness that an enemy can exploit in order to destroy or capture them otherwise they're an obvious candidate to be used as a juggernaut death star. I think of it like casting Spell of Mastery.. It's super expensive, but once you cast it, you win automatically. Cost alone can't be the balance because it's a non-combat factor. Cost and relative fleet strength are definately an important balance, and I see what you mean about being able to effect the same results cost-wise by using a fleet of regular ships vs a worldship, but you also don't want to relegate worldships to the "end game super special purpose resource waster for the guy who doesn't know what else to do with his money" unit.. You just want to make regular ships more combat-viable than a worldship, and worldships viable, useful and economically logical for other purposes.

Defensively, it's my understanding that all ships have shields, and worldships (and planets) would be no exception. As you research higher shield technology, perhaps worldship shields are upgraded in the same manner as planetary shields. I think it's safe to presume that no ship-class shield generator would be powerful enough to encase a ship the size of a world.

-Ty.

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Re: Ship Design

#93 Post by Krikkitone » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:33 pm

RonaldX wrote:You just want to make regular ships more combat-viable than a worldship, and worldships viable, useful and economically logical for other purposes.
-Ty.
And what would that purpose be? besides 'so cool' worldship.

Issues/possible uses of worldships

Economically... this is a big issue
They are constructed planets... they don't even have to move.
If you reach your maximum population on all your worlds, build Worldships to increase you productivity without getting any more territory or any more tech. If that's all they are then it is rather pointless to even give them engines, call them artificial worlds and just fill them in your most defended system (100 'worldships' at the capital)

They'd have to be limited in some way
(perhaps they can't mine... unless they are using asteroids that aren't being used otherwise, and they need maintenance)
OR
To construct a worldship, you use a world... basically you don't 'build' a worldship, you convert a planet into a Worldship.

So that the Use of a world ship centers around a mobile economy as opposed to just more economy.

uses for a Mobile economy...
Resupplying/reinforcing a fleet by getting closer to the frontlines (indicating an important part of a worldship may be a shipyard.)
Moving threatened assets away from an enemy attack

That's all I can think of... both of those fit with the 'mobile planet' idea (indeed they fit even better, since that allows you to take assets you have and Make them mobile).... so instead of 'building a worldship' from scratch instead "Convert" a planet into a worldship. (or maybe convert a moon into a worldship... that might be a lower tech version)


there are also story purposes (some species could Start with a Worldship as their HW.. but that alo works.)

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Re: Ship Design

#94 Post by Bigjoe5 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:43 am

A few other advantages to mobile colonies/outposts: I'm speculating that the player will be able to send spies to planets which are within the resource supply range of one of his planets, or an enemy planet which he has infiltrated. Having a mobile colony or outpost would therefore also be useful for espionage purposes. Also, it's not exactly easy to blockade a colony that can literally just move to a different system. Buildings that only affect the system in which they are constructed, for example, by increasing or decreasing the stealth of all objects present in the system, would be able to be moved from one system to another.

You may have a very good point regarding more economy vs. mobile economy. In that light, it makes a great deal of sense to have to use a world to build a worldship.

If this is to be the case, though, how should various worldship hulls progress? We could still have different worldship hulls even if the planet is used up, and certain hulls might only be buildable with certain planet types. Should the resulting worldship still have external and internal slots, or should it continue to have the defensive systems it had as a planet? Personally, I like the idea of the mobile worldship equipped with lots of ship parts - it creates more interesting dynamics than "it's a planet with defense and shield meters, but it can move." In other words, I think a lot of what we've agreed upon previously is still valid, but it should require a colonized planet to be turned into a worldship.
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Re: Ship Design

#95 Post by RonaldX » Sat Mar 27, 2010 4:42 pm

You already kind of stated the main question regarding worldships.. Are they really big ships that can hold people and industry, or planets that can move?

If it's the former, I'd say give it lots of ship parts and it must not have planetary shield or resource meters, but might provide a static amount of resource income depending on the types of structures included therein. This wouldn't require a planet to construct and would provide "more (and mobile) economy".

If it's the latter, it shouldn't equip ship parts, and should have planetary shield and resource meters, and should require a planet to construct. This provides "mobile economy".

To be honest, I don't really like the idea of a mobile planet. I much prefer the idea of an extremely large ship hull with a high capacity. If you want to equip it with ship parts, then don't consider it a planet, and remove the shield and resource meters. It could contribute X resources or house X population depending on it's equipment loadout and tech level.

-Ty.

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Re: Ship Design

#96 Post by Krikkitone » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:59 pm

RonaldX wrote:You already kind of stated the main question regarding worldships.. Are they really big ships that can hold people and industry, or planets that can move?

If it's the former, I'd say give it lots of ship parts and it must not have planetary shield or resource meters, but might provide a static amount of resource income depending on the types of structures included therein. This wouldn't require a planet to construct and would provide "more (and mobile) economy".

If it's the latter, it shouldn't equip ship parts, and should have planetary shield and resource meters, and should require a planet to construct. This provides "mobile economy".

To be honest, I don't really like the idea of a mobile planet. I much prefer the idea of an extremely large ship hull with a high capacity. If you want to equip it with ship parts, then don't consider it a planet, and remove the shield and resource meters. It could contribute X resources or house X population depending on it's equipment loadout and tech level.

-Ty.
The problem is then it is just "building a planet" that happens to be mobile.
Which of the 5 resources can it produce?.. is that limited
Can it produce whatever resource is used to maintain it?

Here is a way I could see it working,
It requires PP to Maintain,
It can include parts that generate Industry, Food, Money, and Research, self sufficiently but NOT Minerals (Mineral generating parts would require Access to an unused Asteroid belt, Gas Giant, or Planet)
It can have a part that Stores Minerals (probably the 'Industry part' would store minerals)

So it would either have to
1. Have a normal planet based imperial economy supplying it with minerals
2. Wander around Gathering Minerals (stocking up for when it had to move from empty planets, etc.

That might be better... just include the idea that the world ship can either
1. start with a small amount of population that will grow to the max Inside the worldship (like a colony ship)
2. absorb the maximum population it can hold (so that it can serve as an evacuation mechanism... or a way to change your empire from a planet based to worldship based economy)

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Re: Ship Design

#97 Post by Bigjoe5 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:51 pm

RonaldX wrote:If it's the former, I'd say give it lots of ship parts and it must not have planetary shield or resource meters, but might provide a static amount of resource income depending on the types of structures included therein. This wouldn't require a planet to construct and would provide "more (and mobile) economy".

If it's the latter, it shouldn't equip ship parts, and should have planetary shield and resource meters, and should require a planet to construct. This provides "mobile economy".
Why? Why can't it a really big ship that can hold lots of people and has parts instead of planetary shields/defense, but also happens to consume a planet when it is built, and retain some of that planet's stats?
RonaldX wrote:To be honest, I don't really like the idea of a mobile planet. I much prefer the idea of an extremely large ship hull with a high capacity.
It can still be considered a ship, and have the appearance of a ship, even though it used to be a planet. It should still be considered a population center and production center, though.

There can still be different worldship hulls with different stats, and there can still be a distinction between Organic and Constructed worldships. The only thing added is the fact that you have to use an already existing planet and transform it into one of these things, rather than building it from scratch, which to me introduces another very significant and interesting difference between these things and regular ships.

As for mining, I'd say it still has pretty much the entire planet within it in some shape or form, and most of it isn't fundamental to running in the ship, so the miners can still magically extract minerals from it without depleting anything. I don't see a huge gameplay advantage to restricting their mining, to be honest.
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Re: Ship Design

#98 Post by Krikkitone » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:39 pm

Bigjoe5 wrote: I don't see a huge gameplay advantage to restricting their mining, to be honest.
If they are ships and not 'mobile planets' that's what we need to do.

Basically 2 options
Mobile Planet worldship... limited by requiring a planet to be consumed to make it... would keep most of the planets stats and add some additional ship related ones
OR
Population Center worldship...limited by lack of ability to Mine without access to a planet (and requiring PP for maintenance)... would purely be a ship with parts that let it
1. have population
2. produce the 5 resources (Minerals only with planet/asteroid access)
3. have certain "buildings" ie Shipyard, starport


The second one might be simpler because it is more 'Purely' a ship



Also as for Combat
Planets have their weapons "above" thier shields (you can disarm a planet without having to touch its shields)
Ships have weapons "below/in" their shield/hull (you can't disarm a ship without destroying it.)

So a Worldship should probably have a population that is much more vulnerable than if they were on a planet...But they can move so its OK. (also the Worldship would be more 'dangerous' than a planet would. ie the Fleet would lose more attacking it... but once they won they would have destroyed it)

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Re: Ship Design

#99 Post by Bigjoe5 » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:07 am

Krikkitone wrote:
Bigjoe5 wrote: I don't see a huge gameplay advantage to restricting their mining, to be honest.
If they are ships and not 'mobile planets' that's what we need to do.
Why? How does being able to produce minerals have anything to do with whether or not it has slots and the appearance of a ship?
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Re: Ship Design

#100 Post by Krikkitone » Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:57 pm

Bigjoe5 wrote:
Krikkitone wrote:
Bigjoe5 wrote: I don't see a huge gameplay advantage to restricting their mining, to be honest.
If they are ships and not 'mobile planets' that's what we need to do.
Why? How does being able to produce minerals have anything to do with whether or not it has slots and the appearance of a ship?
There are two ways to limit worldships

1. Worldship consumes a planet in its construction

2. Worldship requires something for maintenance (PP ... which need minerals) that it cannot produce on its own

Option 1 is basically a mobile planet, it may take on the appearance of a ship, and lose a number of settings, but in a gameplay sense, that is what you are doing (the ultimate in terraforming)

Option 2 is something that is a ship completely, and can be made drastically different from planets without wierd 'conversion issues'

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Re: Ship Design

#101 Post by Bigjoe5 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:56 pm

If possible, I'd like to see worldships that

- are highly customizable with slots, like ships, and
- require a planet to be constructed, to make constructing them more significant, without massively increasing their cost.

There is the issue though, of what happens to the shields and defense meters?

They could:

- Reduce the cost of the worldship by a certain amount. This doesn't make much sense though, since shields and defense for planets doesn't cost any PP.
- Simply disappear. This doesn't make a lot of sense either, since it took a while for those meters to build up.
- Reduce the minimum build time. Time is what was required for shields and defense to build up, so it's reasonable that time is what they should give you in return when those meters are lost in the transfer to the worldship.

Other suggestions are welcome.
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