Proposal for elimination of Population

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Krikkitone
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Proposal for elimination of Population

#1 Post by Krikkitone »

An idea for the simplification of the economic model removing population entirely.

Each planet has a "Development Level" a statistic that combines the 'Population' and 'Construction' meter ideas.

It grows in a manner similar to population, with some changes

Each Planet has an "Optimum Development Level" based on Planet Size and Technology (and Racial Bonuses)
a "Current Development Level"
and an "Effective Development Level"= Minimum of "Current Development Level" and "Optimum Development Level"

Increase Development Level = Effective Development Level x (Factor determined by TL, Race, Game Balance) x (Optimum Development Level+1-Effective Development Level)/Optimum Development Level

"DL"* x Resource multiplier=Output [resource multipliers operate the same way]
* Effective Development Level for Minerals, Current Development Level for other Resources.

Food Consumption = Development Level x Environment Modifier [worse Environment=more Food Consumed]

if Food Consumption < Food Supplies, then Increase in Development Level = (Factor determined by TL, Race, Game Balance)
and you get an impact on "Happiness/Allegiance/Loyalty" as well

*If it seems wierd to have "Development" consuming Food, explain it as all the "environmental maintenance" needs of the population. Which also applies to all their Infrastructure...Human Factories and processes are based on an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere and liquid water.

This way you don't have a Health meter or Population meter.

The Race of a Planet would be determined by a Flag "Race X-inhabited"

A Colony ship would start a Planet off at a Particular Development Level... Depending on the cost of the Colony Ship. And it would contain a Particular Race Flag

Changing of the Race of a Planet could be done by a Planet going into 'Transition'... DL might decline then, the higher the DL the longer the transition would take.

"Evacuating" a planet or applying "Scorched Earth" tactics would decrease its Development Level.... the difference between Evacuating the population and Burning it all to the Ground would be in Happiness/Loyalty of other planets, you don't get to 'recover' any of the Development

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utilae
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#2 Post by utilae »

I think your going down the right path. Though how can there be a minimum of Current Development Level" and "Optimum Development Level.
I would have thought that Current Development Level would have no min or max but a 'current' value. And Optimum Development Level, well isn't that like the max of development level?


Another way you could do it is as so:

Planet has an Area.
The planet has a development level along the lines of a combination of infrastructure and population combined.
As the planets development level increases, it uses up Area. When there is no more Area, the planet is fully developed.
The speed at which the planet develops is determined by a combination of construction meter and health meter and the food meter would come into it as well.
In this way planet size would act as a natural limit for the planets outputs and basically achieve what population would achieve, but in a much simpler way.

Example
Turn 1
Planet A
Area=85
Development Level=0
Area Left=Area-Development Level=85
Research Focus Output=very basic: Development Level x RaceResearch x TechResearch x Etc

Turn 20
Planet A
Area=85
Development Level=50
Area Left=Area-Development Level=35
Research Focus Output=very basic: Development Level x RaceResearch x TechResearch x Etc

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Krikkitone
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#3 Post by Krikkitone »

I used Optimum, because wanted it Not to be the Maximum

ie Development level has no maximum, but past a certain Optimum
1. It grows more slowly
2. It give no benefit for Mining (but extra Development can still give more Research, Money, Industry, probably Food too)

the 'effective development level' is just the smaller of the 'current dl' and the 'optimum'

ie

Planet A:
Current DL = 22
Optimum DL = 20
Effective DL = Minimum of the two = 20
All Resource meters=1.0
Mining Production = 20 x 1.0
Research Production =22 x 1.0
Industry Production = 22 x 1.0
etc.

Planet B:
Current DL = 5
Optimum DL = 20
Effective DL = Minimum of the two = 5
All Resource meters=1.0
Mining Production = 5 x 1.0
Research Production =5 x 1.0
Industry Production = 5 x 1.0
etc.

Next Turn assuming the "Factor" is 0.1

Planet A: new dl, 0.1 * 20 * (20+1-20)/20 =0.1
Current DL = 21.1
Optimum DL = 20
Effective DL = Minimum of the two = 20

Planet B: new dl, 0.1 * 5 * (20+1-5)/20 = 0.4
Current DL = 5.4
Optimum DL = 10
Effective DL = Minimum of the two = 5.3

This allows a planet to become Highly developed given enough time.
It also allows different resources to be handled differently.

You Could just use a "Max DL" instead of an Optimum one. so you would have the standard logistic growth.
[I guess you could have the alternative of a building on a Planet that allowed this indefinite growth... but eliminated its ability to produce certain resources... so that it allowed for a 'mega planet' that required other planet to be useful]

Development Level could then also consume Money, even as it consumes Food.
Money is required based on your "Government" otherwise Growth slows/stops and you get 'unhappiness' ie possible rebellions, etc.
Food is required based on the "Environment" otherwise Growth slows/stops and you get 'unhappiness' ie possible rebellions, etc.

So improvements to the Food/Money resource meters would improve your efficiency ... and allow access to better governments and more hostile environments
improvements to Max/Optimum DL would be allowing you to do more with a limited amount of Territory


One other thing I would do to simplify the economy is eliminate multiple Foci.
A Planet should have only 1 Resource it is Focusing on... although it could have a Weak Focus, as a transition from Balanced

So,
Planet has a
Focus: Mineral
Level: High
Mineral Resource Meter Max +20, all others +0
OR
Focus: Mineral
Level: Low
Mineral Resource Meter Max +8, all others +3
OR
Focus: Balanced
Level:NA
All Resource Meters Max +4

This makes it far easier to manage the economy... if you need more of a resource...

Planets with that Foci: set to Higher Levels
Planets with Other Foci: set to Lower Levels... or change Focus

marhawkman
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#4 Post by marhawkman »

wow... I honestly can't say I hate this idea... I have to wonder at how this will interact with other aspects of gameplay though.
Computer programming is fun.

muxec
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#5 Post by muxec »

If we remove or significantly decrease the role of population we risk to see overexpansion like in Space Empires games. Population should not be allowed to be built explicitly (housing in Moo2) to avoid exploitation.

It is possible to reduce the effectiveness of additional population when population exceeds production/reserach/etc methods.

Population size should affect the chance of colony leaders and ship officers being born on that planet (if and when implemented)

Elimination of population will remove the familiarity possibly making players unhappy.

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Krikkitone
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#6 Post by Krikkitone »

muxec wrote:If we remove or significantly decrease the role of population we risk to see overexpansion like in Space Empires games. Population should not be allowed to be built explicitly (housing in Moo2) to avoid exploitation.
Well you wouldn't have over expansion, since you can't build "development" ... the equivalent of population combined with construction levels. It just grows.

As long as "development" has some maintenance cost, ie food to maintain the abstracted population working it and money to keep the abstracted population happy, then you won't have that
muxec wrote: It is possible to reduce the effectiveness of additional population when population exceeds production/reserach/etc methods.
This is already done by max populations on worlds, or max development levels

muxec wrote: Population size should affect the chance of colony leaders and ship officers being born on that planet (if and when implemented)
Development works just as well for that. (under the assumption that leaders need to have the right opportunities to become leaders.... if you are born in the undeveloped slums, you have a much smaller chance of becoming a 'leader'. so the development level of the colony is a 'realistic' enough concept for 'leader production'
muxec wrote: Elimination of population will remove the familiarity possibly making players unhappy.
This I agree is a potential downside.... but it has the upside of removing the wierdness of... a planet with a population limited at a few billion... or a few million... Or colony ships carrying billions of people.

A population number could be generated based on the development level of worlds (and current technology).. but there is no need for it to have any meaning besides color. (which allows it to move more readily)
Last edited by Krikkitone on Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

muxec
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#7 Post by muxec »

That's why I say that population should be transportable unlike development meter that just grows locally. :)

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Krikkitone
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#8 Post by Krikkitone »

muxec wrote:That's why I say that population should be transportable unlike development meter that just grows locally. :)
The point is population is unnecessary... you Don't want to move your basic unit of economic production. (Except for colonization). Especially since the economic production itself is completely mobile.

muxec
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#9 Post by muxec »

Krikkitone wrote:
muxec wrote:That's why I say that population should be transportable unlike development meter that just grows locally. :)
The point is population is unnecessary... you Don't want to move your basic unit of economic production. (Except for colonization).
Than what's the role of the player except for pressing "End turn"? So you set focus once and no MM after that?
economic production itself is completely mobile
Huh? What did I miss in the design?

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pd
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#10 Post by pd »

Huh? What did I miss in the design?
The empire wide production queue?

muxec
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#11 Post by muxec »

pd wrote:
Huh? What did I miss in the design?
The empire wide production queue?
The production points/minerals must be produced somewhere by someone.

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pd
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#12 Post by pd »

Exactly, but it doesn't matter where or by whom.

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Krikkitone
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#13 Post by Krikkitone »

muxec wrote:
Krikkitone wrote:
muxec wrote:That's why I say that population should be transportable unlike development meter that just grows locally. :)
The point is population is unnecessary... you Don't want to move your basic unit of economic production. (Except for colonization).
Than what's the role of the player except for pressing "End turn"? So you set focus once and no MM after that??
Yup... all MM is
1. what you spend your economic production on
2. telling fleets to do things
3. handling diplomatic relation
muxec wrote:
economic production itself is completely mobile
Huh? What did I miss in the design?
you also missed the "no buildings" on most planets... they just automatically develop to whatever focus you set them on, with an occasional rare 'wonder-type' building.
Last edited by Krikkitone on Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

marhawkman
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#14 Post by marhawkman »

Ya' know. The more I read about this, the more I like it.

Abstracting production/general growth sounds like a GREAT! idea. That's one of the biggest sources of Micro in most 4X games.
Computer programming is fun.

muxec
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Re: Proposal for elimination of Population

#15 Post by muxec »

Population can still be used for:
1. United races votes.
2. Different races with different special abilities and racial bonuses. If you conquered a race of merchants you probably want them to migrate to your economy world, not your manufacturing capital.

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