Sectors (illustated with jpg)

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Krikkitone · #16 Post by **Krikkitone** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:53 pm

I think the biggest problem with 3D wouldn't be the coding, or even this feature.

If the map is Truly 3D we get problems with the UI, in terms of prsentation it becomes that much more complicated. MOO3 solved the problem by having one view from which the map was basically 2D (no starlanes crossed over each other ... so it was like a 2D map with variable starlane speeds)

In a truly 3D map, getting the concept of space is very difficult until we get holoprojection screens (Homeworld, great game taught me that..3D Can be done with an RTS..but not well with a TBS)

#17 Post by **Tyreth** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:02 pm

The map is 2D. Personally, I'm happy to wait for holographic monitors before seeing 3D space strategy games

tsev · #18 Post by **tsev** » Wed Oct 22, 2003 5:20 pm

The map will always be 2D...

a former FO programmer (gustavo) had worked on implementing a graphics system using OpenGL Vertex Coloring and an overlayed mesh to shade portions of the galaxy different colors. This was originally intended to show the player statistical information, similar to the overlays you are able to see in SimCity4. The same (or similar) code could be used to implement this sector idea. So thats the story with regards to implementation....

...however, I've got some questions about this that I'll throw out there for discussion:

What purposes would sectors serve? Will they change the fundamentals of the game, or are they provided as simply a user-interface convenience?

Will sectors significantly increase screen clutter? Should they be toggled on & off? How do you tell the difference between a sector and an opposing player's territory who shares the same color as the sector?

Can sectors contain enemy systems? Can they contain allied systems?

Will the AI benefit from defining sectors? If so, how?

Can sectors change without user interaction (i.e. if the player loses a contained system, or gains an adjacent system)?

If sectors are not user-defined, how are they defined by the galaxy-generator?

What sort of interface would be used to manipulate sectors if they ARE user-defined?

I like the thought of sectors (and the graphic illustrates the idea nicely). I'm just not really sure how useful they would be. If they are used, I think that we should place a very heavy emphasis on making the manipulation and use of them as simple and transparent to the user as possible. This is assuming its a user-interface convenience feature.

mart7x5 · #19 Post by **mart7x5** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:50 am

Sectors might be turned on&off. when they are "on", all other player are grey on the map, we see in color only our teritory. when sectors are "off" empires are in colors, and sectors maybe only drawn with single "grey" line?
I think that idea of dividing the empire into sectors with sector governors for avoiding micromanagement is good. If i want to issue an order to part of the planets in the empire, i could use sector governor for that.
What to do if some planet is captured/obtained in treaty? a question from computer - would you like to add the planetary system to existing sector or create a new sector? And there might be sector management tool, where emperors could define sectors, change them etc.

Sandlapper · #20 Post by **Sandlapper** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 4:16 pm

I like idea of sectors, too. Having a sector governor\government would simplify empire management..i.e. one order covers many planets. Also, as previously mentioned military orders could be given sector specific. In addition to assigning a sector governor, I would allow sector specific fleet\fleets to defend\patrol it's sector. To simplify things, the sectors probaly should be assigned automatically at onset of gameplay. However, to allow some flexibility, I suggest allowing governor\government entities to control as many sectors as a player wishes..i.e. one for all, or one for each, or a combination. At the beginning of gameplay, an assigned sector governor can be given simple orders like "Colonize all colonizable systems in sector xyz" I suggest a sector UI with basic repetative commands like Colonize Sector,Defend Sector, Attack Sector(another enemy sector), BUT I also suggest a list of sector systems on the UI with CHECKBOXES for system specific orders..i.e. Sector Fleet 1 patrol systems X1,X2,X3 only(border systems in threat of attack)OR Build Shipyards on systems X6,X7,X8 OR Increase food production on systems X3,X4,X5. This gives the option of simple orders..i.e. Defend Sector for macromanagement or system specific orders for those who like micromanagement. As for the Sector UI, I would suggest systems be greyed out(and labeled "Unknown") until colonized, perhaps blue or green for colonized "in possession of" systems, and red for colonized systems "not in possession of".

utilae · #21 Post by **utilae** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:30 am

Maybe sectors could be used with Xs. You control the right sectors and you find an X.

Impaler · #22 Post by **Impaler** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:45 pm

Utilae that dosen't make any sense if Sectors are Player defined. The X thing would need to be in a star System and the sector the X would be in depends on how the player selects his sectors.

I like the whole Sector idea a lot, especialy the User secectable part. I recomend that the sectors be specific to the player who creates them. Basicaly each player can divide up the whole map as they wish and the sectors apear only too them. The sector overlay becomes a unique lens that each player sees the game though, players never comunicate their sector maps too each other or have any effect on how the other player percives their own sector map.

#23 Post by **tzlaine** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:58 pm

I think this feature us pretty unnecessary, since we have plans already for good UI elements that do more-or-less the same thing. The idea for a long time has been to have most, if not all, orders applicable to multiple systems and/or planets. The idea is that you would drag a box around several systems, or shift-select them, or whatever, and then issue one order to all of them. Besides visually grouping territory, this is the only advantage confered by sectors. In fact, sectors may be more limiting in terms of command-and-control flexibility if we disallow overlaps.

That is, unless I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. Is there another way in which user-defined sectors are useful?

iamrobk · #24 Post by **iamrobk** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:07 pm

It could help the AI, or instead of shift-clicking where you want a fleet to go, you could just select the sector, which really helps when you get tons of fleets IMO.

utilae · #25 Post by **utilae** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:53 pm

Impaler wrote:Utilae that dosen't make any sense if Sectors are Player defined. The X thing would need to be in a star System and the sector the X would be in depends on how the player selects his sectors.

Well, sectors could be defined when the map is created. Players could also define sectors. But if a player controls certain sectors (as defined when the map was created) they find an X. You can't really search properly until you control the area around the X.

skdiw · #26 Post by **skdiw** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:18 pm

tzlaine wrote:I think this feature us pretty unnecessary, since we have plans already for good UI elements that do more-or-less the same thing. The idea for a long time has been to have most, if not all, orders applicable to multiple systems and/or planets. The idea is that you would drag a box around several systems, or shift-select them, or whatever, and then issue one order to all of them. Besides visually grouping territory, this is the only advantage confered by sectors. In fact, sectors may be more limiting in terms of command-and-control flexibility if we disallow overlaps.

That is, unless I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. Is there another way in which user-defined sectors are useful?

Having sectors should help you a lot in programming several other ideas that we have. You can also use it as a tool to help implement some of the game features and programming the AI. For example, it is easier to use sectors to define frontier area for other UI tools and diplomacy, special buildings that affect the galaxy map like warp relpuler that slow enemy ships, or like calculating who is in power/territory lead for the 70% territory win. The list goes on and having sectors will really help in addition to having some gameplay effects.

Obiwan · #27 Post by **Obiwan** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:40 pm

I think this feature us pretty unnecessary, since we have plans already for good UI elements that do more-or-less the same thing.

I think its a good thing that the player run the game without sectors. But I think it should be made aplealing to him to use sectors if he so wishes.

Its the role playing bit that attracts me most. All empires on earth where ruled that way. Jurasdictions provinces, the Roman empire is a good example.

A sector management tool, something like the leaders screen in Moo2 but with far more functionality would be an essential ingrediant to me.
Kind of like a heads of state meeting with you the supreme boss.
A place where all sorts of commands could be given, like the ones Sandlapper stated.

Running your empire without it could be likened to using the normal functions of government, whereas the sector screen could be where you wield your emperial privilage and power to get things done, maybe even break the rules a bit.

So maybe there could be a slight $$ cost to using some of its more powerful and useful functions (greasing the wheels so to speak)
This would make it feasible only to an empire thats getting really big.
Access to certian features could be staggered, or limited until your empire improves in some way.
Or as a balancing measure the cost of using your empirial privalges could grow as wealth and corruption increase.

Simply being able to divide Sitrep reports into specific areas of space would be worth its weight in gold to me (bad memory for names)

also impalers words here say it perfect

I recomend that the sectors be specific to the player who creates them. Basicaly each player can divide up the whole map as they wish and the sectors apear only too them. The sector overlay becomes a unique lens that each player sees the game though, players never comunicate their sector maps too each other or have any effect on how the other player percives their own sector map.

Obiwan · #28 Post by **Obiwan** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:32 pm

I should try and give an opinion on some of your other questions

Will sectors significantly increase screen clutter? Should they be toggled on & off? How do you tell the difference between a sector and an opposing player's territory who shares the same color as the sector?

Toggle them with a hot key . Use a stippled effect for enemy areas to fend off probs with clashing colors.

Can sectors contain enemy systems? Can they contain allied systems?

Yes I think so. The Dutch called Australia 'VanDeamons land' in the early days and didnt give twohoots what the aboriginies thought.

Will the AI benefit from defining sectors? If so, how?

Yes definatly - especially militarily, (when we speak about WW2, we divide it into Campaigns - Ardennes, Battle of the bulge, the Pacific theatre
Operation Barberosa)
If the enemy AI can define a sector of space for conquest based on its current needs, racial charectoristics, personality (arrogent. cautious mercantile etc) then define an amount of time for the attack to reach its objective - based on its knowlage of your ships and supply status and also its own. Then you have a frame work which alsorts of tactics and stratages can aplied within.
It will make spieing and deception intersting things to do.
It would divide wars into campaigns. which will add personality plus to the game.

Can sectors change without user interaction (i.e. if the player loses a contained system, or gains an adjacent system)?

I am thinking not, I would like to at least name an areas of space that are not under my control. (So I can have visual goals to push me on, also so there is a sense of achievement (Yes I have conquered the 'Gothic Sector now I am in a desperate holding action while i consolidate and resupply)

If sectors are not user-defined, how are they defined by the galaxy-generator?

Userdefined (please)

What sort of interface would be used to manipulate sectors if they ARE user-defined?

Could it be something like using 'nodes' in Photoshop, Is the interface R-click?

utilae · #29 Post by **utilae** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:48 pm

Sectors could be defined by the galaxy generator randomly, for use by the computer players. Maybe they share the same sector view. And they use sectors to help determine war and expansion strategies.

skdiw · #30 Post by **skdiw** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:07 pm

I think you all mean user-dependent and not user-defined. User-defined means you have to go in and draw circles to mark your sectors or some other action. User-dependent is passive meaning no action is required; it is automatically done in the background; so if you colonize a planet, a circle proportional to your power is drawn for you. I think user-defined is a little over board.