Stockpiles

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderators: Oberlus, Oberlus

Message
Author
User avatar
MikkoM
Space Dragon
Posts: 318
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:32 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Stockpiles

#16 Post by MikkoM » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:24 pm

Geoff the Medio wrote:IMO, the real problem is the perceived need to switch between food or minerals or industry to grow and produce stuff in the short term. This is possible and beneficial (and thus necessary) due to stockpiles. Without them, the player will be (even more) forced to pick one focus and stick with it, as there's no way to build up a stockpile of something to tide you over while switching to something else and thus achieve an effective "balanced" focus when averaged over time.
A couple of questions.

Would eliminating the stockpile make the economy system even more inflexible, since if for example important mining or farming systems are lost and the empire`s food or mineral production drops below the empire`s need for these resources, the whole economy will suffer significantly until the player/AI made focus changes can help the situation as there are no buffers to soften the blow?

Could the stockpiled resources perhaps be traded through diplomacy between empires? This could possibly allow different empires to focus more on certain resources and perhaps also make wars between these empires more unlikely.

And could eliminating the stockpile lead to focus setting micromanagement, since any food and minerals that aren`t used in the empire would go to waste?

User avatar
eleazar
Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
Posts: 3858
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
Location: USA — midwest

Re: Stockpiles

#17 Post by eleazar » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:17 pm

MikkoM wrote:Would eliminating the stockpile make the economy system even more inflexible, since if for example important mining or farming systems are lost and the empire`s food or mineral production drops below the empire`s need for these resources, the whole economy will suffer significantly until the player/AI made focus changes can help the situation as there are no buffers to soften the blow?
Sure, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It simply make high producing resource worlds more strategically important to defend, or capture.

MikkoM wrote:Could the stockpiled resources perhaps be traded through diplomacy between empires? This could possibly allow different empires to focus more on certain resources and perhaps also make wars between these empires more unlikely.
You mean "unused", or "excess"? If so, i would say, yes.

MikkoM wrote:And could eliminating the stockpile lead to focus setting micromanagement, since any food and minerals that aren`t used in the empire would go to waste?
It might, except there aren't any fiddly controls you can really micromanage.

Also excess resources, aren't entirely wasted since they provide insurance that your economy can keep going even if you loose a planet.

User avatar
PL_Andrev
Space Floater
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:59 am

Re: Stockpiles

#18 Post by PL_Andrev » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:25 am

eleazar wrote:
MikkoM wrote:Would eliminating the stockpile make the economy system even more inflexible, since if for example important mining or farming systems are lost and the empire`s food or mineral production drops below the empire`s need for these resources, the whole economy will suffer significantly until the player/AI made focus changes can help the situation as there are no buffers to soften the blow?
Sure, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It simply make high producing resource worlds more strategically important to defend, or capture.
This 'stockpile' idea can be still kept by percentage stockpile resources available on planet (an can be captured).
For example: food resources depend from population, mineral from planetary mining.
With this idea you have intergalactic stockpile and possibility to resources capturing at planet.

User avatar
eleazar
Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
Posts: 3858
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
Location: USA — midwest

Re: Stockpiles

#19 Post by eleazar » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:26 pm

PL_Andrev wrote:This 'stockpile' idea can be still kept by percentage stockpile resources available on planet (an can be captured).
For example: food resources depend from population, mineral from planetary mining.
With this idea you have intergalactic stockpile and possibility to resources capturing at planet.
I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

User avatar
PL_Andrev
Space Floater
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:59 am

Re: Stockpiles

#20 Post by PL_Andrev » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:18 pm

Stockpile idea makes management flexible but no resource on planets (available at planet capture).
Planetary resources make management inflexible (transport between planets) but possible to capture resources when planet is capturing.

Solution:
  • - keep resources globally (to avoid micromanagement)
    - calculate possible resource proportionally to planetary size / mining level (to capture them if plant is captured)
Example:
  • There are 3 planets with sizes 10-10-20 and 100 food resources collected.
    All planets use or produce these resources globally (100 is available for all planets).
    When planet 10 size is captured then:
    100 (collected resources) * 10 (planetary size) / 40 (all planetary sizes) = 25
    Defeat empire loses 25 collected resources / win empire keeps 25 collected at conquested planet.
    This same idea with mineral resources and number of mines at attacked planet.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 12393
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Stockpiles

#21 Post by Geoff the Medio » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:59 pm

The issue of how much resources to transfer between empires when capturing planets is not very important, and not the main reason why we're discussing removing stockpiles.

If you're also suggesting having resources be stored on individual planets, always in proportion to the output of those planets, and for those resources to be available for feeding / production, then that won't work. It would mean that resources would be automagically transferred between planets independent of whether they are actually able to share resources.

User avatar
eleazar
Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
Posts: 3858
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
Location: USA — midwest

Re: Stockpiles

#22 Post by eleazar » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:18 am

For reference, here's the resource distribution system we have.

Removing the concept of stockpiles from the game doesn't require changing anything else, though planetary distribution rules aren't quite as simple as i'd like.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 12393
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Stockpiles

#23 Post by Geoff the Medio » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:51 am

eleazar wrote:...planetary distribution rules aren't quite as simple as i'd like.
Could this be a case of me writing something out explicitly in great detail, but which is really not that complicated in practice...?
* If connected, planets share food, minerals, and industry.
* Connected means within few enough jumps (construction / 20) and not blocked by enemy fleets.
* Unused food and minerals get stockpiled if connected to the stockpile planet, or are lost.
* Research and trade are shared empire-wide regardless of connections.

User avatar
eleazar
Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
Posts: 3858
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
Location: USA — midwest

Re: Stockpiles

#24 Post by eleazar » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:28 pm

The explanation of the resource distribution rules are plenty simple. But using them in practice i fear will be more cumbersome.

My problem is with the rule that links the number of jumps resources can move to the infrastructure meter. In middle or late game, there will be a may be a lot of invisibly overlapping possible resource routes within an empire. While trying to bolster your defenses or while planning an invasion, it will be unnecessarily complicated to try to figure out where the weak spots are, and why you distribution net will have been severed, or resisted being severed by an invasion or blockade.
This old post has a more thorough explanation with graphics -- ignore the parts referring to ships.

In short, the routes of supply-- and where they originate from, are too complicated to clearly be displayed in the GUI.


Also, i find it frustrating to wait on infrastructure meter growth (which i cannot influence) to connect relatively close planets of my fledgling empire. Chances are high that there won't be a planet of the right EP within the supply range of your homeworld. Admittedly this part could be ameliorated by tweaks to the numbers.


I'd prefer to see standard supply line distances of 1. (maybe cool late game tech would change this) To connect more distant colonies, you could build outposts: bases cheaper than colonies, but without most of the benefits of colonies. Thus understanding how supplies can move from place to place (or be obstructed) is always abundantly obvious.


I realize we've been over this ground somewhat in the past, but since we are considering simplifying a related system (stockpiles)...

User avatar
MGyver
Space Floater
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:02 am

Re: Stockpiles

#25 Post by MGyver » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:32 pm

I still support the elimination of the classical concept of stockpiles. More ideas:

Food: On-planet stockpiles, or the illusion of this. If running low on food begins to deplete population health, this would accomplish the same thing as long as those citizens can survive for a little while. In the real world, if our grocery stores become empty then the citizens will still survive for a reasonable period of time, perhaps indefinitely. Maybe food-rich climates can be more survivable once food resources become scarce..? I like the idea of a standardized 1-jump range for distribution between systems 'automagically' :lol:

Minerals: Finite resources on a per-planet basis! Your mineral focus changes the rate at which minerals are extracted. Later tech advances could allow better mining and refining or whatever, increasing not only total available mineral resources on any given planet but also increasing extraction rate. Apply techs like 'recycling' to gain a free +1 mineral per turn on a planet. This means that mineral stockpiles are intrinsic to planet status; capturing a planet allows you to capture that 'stockpile' without really taking anything from the defending player's empire.

Production: No stockpiles at all, simply a speed limit for planetary production based on total infrastructure. Does unused production currently increase the rate of infrastructure-building?

Research: Centrally collected as long as every planet is within communication range.

Trade: Centrally collected as is research.


INTRA-SYSTEM COLlLABORATION

If planets within a system could instantly share Food then I would be happy. But why not industry? In this vision of the future, why couldn't Earth and Mars collaborate on the building of in-system projects? This would reduce the impact of removing stockpiles by adding an easy-to-apply sharing option. A simple % penalty can reflect the inefficiency of shuttling raw materials between planets. Late-game tech could even allow collaboration between systems! Example:

A ship costs "100".
Earth produces 10 minerals and 25 production, and can build a ship in 10 turns.
Mars produces 30 minerals and 5 production; it would take 20 turns to build the ship.
If Earth and Mars decide to collaborate, they collectively have 40 minerals and 30 production.
The social tech that allows intra-system collaboration is somewhat developed, and there is only a -15% penalty.
After the penalty, the Sol system has access to 34 minerals and 25 production if the planets collaborate.
The ship can now be constructed in 4 turns, occupying the build queue of both Earth and Mars.
A ship is added to the build queue on Earth.
The player presses 'collaborate' on the ship's queue icon and selects Mars from a list of in-system colonies.
The ship is added to the Mars build queue.
Four turns later, the ship is produced at Earth (where it was initially queued).

User avatar
MikkoM
Space Dragon
Posts: 318
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:32 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Stockpiles

#26 Post by MikkoM » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:49 pm

eleazar wrote:Sure, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It simply make high producing resource worlds more strategically important to defend, or capture.
It probably wouldn`t be a bad thing as long as the economy system stays flexible enough, so that you can make the possibly needed focus setting changes during the game without completely losing the game just because of them. So in other words that the penalty for making neccessary focus setting changes doesn´t become too high for players to attempt them.
eleazar wrote:You mean "unused", or "excess"? If so, i would say, yes.
Yes, that was what I meant.
eleazar wrote:It might, except there aren't any fiddly controls you can really micromanage.

Also excess resources, aren't entirely wasted since they provide insurance that your economy can keep going even if you loose a planet.
Yes, excess resources aren`t entirely wasted, but I was just wondering, if more players would try to balance their economy with focus settings to produce something that they can use and see instantly without the stockipile than with it. Since with the stockpile the insurance is much more visible than without it.
Last edited by MikkoM on Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
eleazar
Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
Posts: 3858
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
Location: USA — midwest

Re: Stockpiles

#27 Post by eleazar » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:01 pm

MGyver wrote:INTRA-SYSTEM COLlLABORATION[/b]
If planets within a system could instantly share Food then I would be happy. But why not industry?...
As i mentioned already in this thread, that's the way it already works. Unless there is a blockade, resources can be shared freely between all planets in a system, no techs, no special buttons needed. There is a single production queue for the empire that determines which projects get priority.
MGyver wrote:Maybe food-rich climates can be more survivable once food resources become scarce..?
Planet that are hostile to a species already give a negative to health. So currently in FO, all other things being equal, humans will starve faster on a planet like Venus, than a planet like Earth.

In general it sounds like you are making a lot of assumptions that FO works just like MoO, when we often do something else. Spend some time getting familiar with our latest release-- it's far from complete, but it will save time proposing stuff that was long ago implemented. :wink:

User avatar
MGyver
Space Floater
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:02 am

Re: Stockpiles

#28 Post by MGyver » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:57 am

Sorry eleazar, I'm just brainstorming. My ideas might be redundant in some ways but they might inspire something else down the line... and hopefully that something else isn't a swift boot off the forum :P

User avatar
Krikkitone
Creative Contributor
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:52 pm

Re: Stockpiles

#29 Post by Krikkitone » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:01 pm

On the Elimination of Stockpiles.

I think it works..

Stuff that is lost....
1. Abilities to 'preinvest'
2. Ability to trade bulk quantities
3. Ability to "average out"
4. Ability to "weather" bad events


#1 is nice but can be dismissed

#2 could probably be reduced as a problem if the AI is capable of handling 'loan' type deals (I give you the planet for 10 trade per turn for 30 turns, not for 300 trade)
#3 can be reduced by giving the HW a significant 'general bonus' that was separate from focus... (and having its default Industry =/= default Minerals OR having a HW Industry focus that boosts Both)


For #4
Excess food could increase Health... possibly improving growth.
Also health could decline in a cumulative sense with no food

ie Health bonus=
+5 * Food produced/pop
-2 for every turn where food<pop (this makes health a pseudo "food stockpile")
OR just
+5 *food/pop
+20 *food/pop, if food<pop

As for minerals.. that isn't quite as devastating if your industry is cut off from your minerals.
but that still means you always want to keep them in perfect balance.. which makes for annoying micromanagement

Ideally if we go with the "everything consumed" model, then their should be some bonus to "excess consumption"

Either there needs to be a bonus to extra industry or to extra minerals.. ideally both.

User avatar
eleazar
Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
Posts: 3858
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
Location: USA — midwest

Re: Stockpiles

#30 Post by eleazar » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:31 pm

Krikkitone wrote:but that still means you always want to keep them in perfect balance.. which makes for annoying micromanagement

Ideally if we go with the "everything consumed" model, then their should be some bonus to "excess consumption"

Either there needs to be a bonus to extra industry or to extra minerals.. ideally both.
Or more boldly, we simply get rid of "minerals" as a distinct resource.

We don't have an "ingredients" resource that need to be paired with "food preparation" to actually feed our colonies
We don't have "theory" points resource that need so be paired with "research" points resource to actually produce techs.

Without stockpiles, i don't think there's a plus side to having these as separate resources. Even if (optimistically) balancing minerals/industry requires very little effort, it doesn't sound like it adds any fun to the game.

Obviously there are techs and structures that will need to be pruned or combined without minerals. But there's no conceptual difficulty in doing that. There's no reason that a "mineral rich" planet shouldn't give a +10 directly to industry.

Post Reply