Espionage

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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haravikk
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Espionage

#1 Post by haravikk »

It seems to me that both the MOO2 and MOO3 systems of espionage are extremely arduous and require a ridiculous amount of hands-on effort to do something that real governments quite literally throw money at and leave to its own devices.

So I have a few ideas about how espionage should work instead:

Finance
From whatever primary financial control is offered, espionage should have its own slider for the percentage of income you want to throw into it. This would probably be a fairly low percentage unless spying is a huge source of power for you.

Recruiting spies
The recruitment and training of spies would be done automatically by your intelligence leaders. Instead of having lots of individual spies with their own stats you would simply get a number indicating how many spies you have, and the average stats of them all (as spies really would be trained to a consistent standard).

Counter-espionage
This would be done simply by doing nothing, by default all spies not on a mission look for signs of enemy spy activity and generally help co-ordinate police forces, security teams and ship-board security efforts in keeping spies out.

Sending a mission
Idle spies can be sent on missions against enemy (or friendly) races by changing your spying options for that race. When you choose to alter these settings you would get a number of options, first and foremost is a slider bar indicating what percentage of your idle spies you want to send against this empire.
Secondly you choose what mission types your spies are to attempt, a few ideas are as follows:
Science - concentrate on damaging enemy research, stealing research items, destroying labs, killing scientists etc
Military - damage production of military ships, attempt to sabatoge defensive fleets, scramble enemy communcations (so they don't detect enemy fleets as early as normal).
Political - damage relations between the target empire and other empires, frame them for supicious acts (e.g link them to terrorist attacks), assasinate enemy leaders
Social - attempt to cause unrest or revolt by destroying entertainment facilities, setting explosives in public places or causing bomb scares. Could go as simple as putting rude grafitti everywhere :)
Economic - damage trade relations, space ports, alter ledgers, divert cash flows or just set fire to people's wallets. Cause monetary woes to the enemy.
Intelligence - by getting involved with the scum and villiany of an empire you can get a good idea of what that empire is doing, this information can allow you to detect enemy fleets earlier, stop enemy spies more easily or discover certain interesting projects or deals being developed.
Havoc - everything is a target, and you've got the trigger. Just blow up anything and everything and see what happens

These options are important and multiple choice would be allowed. Obviously choosing only a few areas of attack would allow you to do better at those tasks. The exception is havoc which is an option that allows no other choices to be made as it covers them all but in a more destructive way than selecting them all minus Havoc.

A further few options could be available too:

Risk - how far your spies should try and go. The higher the risk is, the more chance there is of your spies getting caught, but also the greater the possible reward. A high risk could allow you to do a much larger number of nasty little things in a single turn.
Damage - this would probably come in specific levels. The damage value determines how many civillian casualties and overall devastation your spies cause. Setting a low damage level will tend to have your spies concentrate on targets within a building rather than the building itself (e.g killing or capturing scientists instead of blowing up the lab they are in).
Generally the lower the damage is set to, the higher the theft becomes as your spies attempt to covertly steal things as an alternative to having a bit of fun...er...I mean damaging things.

Interrogation
When enemy spies are caught then some of them may be captured alive for interrogation. The more enemy spies you manage the interrogate, the stronger you become against further enemy spy attempts (e.g forcing information about planned attacks out of a spy). The only way to get around interrogation and the negative affect it can have on your spying attempts you have to set a lower risk level for spies in that empire.

Conclusion
To me this method of controlling spying seems much more fluid and simple while still being fun and retaining a nice degree of control. In MOO2 and MOO3 I hated having to build/train spies and send them out individually.

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utilae
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#2 Post by utilae »

I like this method very much. You've definintley tried to minimise micromanagement. And the options you have presented allow for alot of variety in spying. :wink:

miu
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#3 Post by miu »

Another option I would love to see: scapegoat empire - if your spys succeeds perfectly on mission, The empire sabotaged will claim the scapegoat empire for damage caused. Selecting of scapegoat empire is restricted by empires the target knows.
Difference between a man and a gentleman is that a man does what he wants, a gentleman does what he should. - Albert Camus

guiguibaah
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Just please....

#4 Post by guiguibaah »

Please please PLEASE don't do what they did to CIV3!! I HATE THE ESPIONNAGE IN CIV3! So you knew you had a spy in your Civ. What to do? You had to

1. Successfully plant a spy in your opponent's civ... Half the time it would get caught... if you tried he got caught, 99% of the rest would get caught... then
2. Undergo the mission to root out the spy and 99% of the time it always failed, and
3. Suffer a diplomatic hit from rooting out HIS spy... while the spy planted in your empire is happily breaking things left right and centre.

Dumb
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drek
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#5 Post by drek »

Just an inkling of an idea:

I'm thinking spy type activities ought to be rolled in with the Leader/Hero system.

They'd be playing pieces like ships, but with Super Special Powers (SSPs). Most hero units would add some bonuses to combat and/or economy. (like in Art of War). Some heros would be cloaked--using whatever cloaking rules we end up having (these woudl be the spies).

Most would also have abilities that can be executed by the player in exchange for some sort of cost (money, minerals, whatever we end up having). The cool thing is we'd be able to tailor the abilities of heros to reflect the character of their native species.

So a race of kill-crazed machines might have:
TERMINATOR 5000
Abilities: Hide +5
Spy [means the hero can gain information for a cost]
Detect Cloaked Units [an ability with a cost]
Assassinate Enemy Hero [an ability with a cost and percent change of failure based on the worth of the enemy hero]
Leader +1 [Gives a minor combat bonus]

A zerg/Aliens type race might have:
Hive Queen
Abilities
Detect Hidden Units
Production +3 [economic ability, planets build crap faster]
Leader +5

and:

Body Snatcher Bob (a doppleganger with a taste for scientists)
Hide +5
Spy
Sabotage Research [special ability with a cost]
Steal Research [ditto]
Incite Unrest [cost something to use]

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utilae
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#6 Post by utilae »

Are you saying that each race could create their own custom spy to be used by their race. If not then I'll sugest this idea.

Basically each race has a spy that is customised to match their race. So a machine race might have spies that are like the Terminator 5000. While a zerg race might have spies that are like the Hive queen.

Regardless of race, spies would all be controlled the same. Though, each races spies would be different.

Satyagraha
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#7 Post by Satyagraha »

you know... keep it simple :P

drek
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#8 Post by drek »

Satyagraha wrote:you know... keep it simple :P
1: There's already plans in the roadmap for sort of leader system.
2: There's already an interface for moving units about the galaxy.

Rolling spy activities into the leader system *is* about making the game simpler.

With each new system we layer more stuff on top of the game. I think it's important that as much of this crap as possible follows the same general paradigm....otherwise we have 15 mini-games instead of one cohesive design.

PowerCrazy
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#9 Post by PowerCrazy »

Wait. This isn't an RTS game. We arent' going to be moving individual units around activating special abilities to lock down the enemy fleet, and infest a command center. I mean even in the tactical combat map we aren't going to have a huge RTS style system, with resources etc. We are going to have a simple system that will allow some rudimentary tactics and manuvering but nothing crazy.

I think spying should be as far as possible from Moo3. An expanded Moo1 style of spying. You throw a percentage of total "money" (whatever we call it) at spying and then spies are produced. Once you have these spies you can set missions for each empire and the spies will target those areas. This shoudl be a simple and intuitive system. Spying shouldn't be a HUGE part of the game but it should be significant, such that if an empire is spending a lot on spying you have to spend some on (anti)spying too.

If we do this right we could make spying the common denominator where
the huge empires don't have the advantage. I'd much rather have this than the "happiness" BS that most games have.
Aquitaine is my Hero.... ;)

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utilae
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#10 Post by utilae »

Yeah, but if make everything too simple it will be boring. A little variety in spying should be good. We just gotta make it so that it is not micro like.

Also, I think Drek means that the abilities will be automatic, not activateable. So really, there not abilities more like attributes.

haravikk
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#11 Post by haravikk »

PowerCrazy wrote:I think spying should be as far as possible from Moo3. An expanded Moo1 style of spying. You throw a percentage of total "money" (whatever we call it) at spying and then spies are produced. Once you have these spies you can set missions for each empire and the spies will target those areas. This shoudl be a simple and intuitive system. Spying shouldn't be a HUGE part of the game but it should be significant, such that if an empire is spending a lot on spying you have to spend some on (anti)spying too.
This is what I was saying in the first post, I haven't actually played MOO1 (did it ever come out for Mac?) but it sounds very much like the system I outlined.

To be perfectly honest to the ship/leader idea, I do not like it at all. If I understand correctly it would require ships/spies to be moved around, if I have to move spies to an enemy empire then quite simply that is not fun. It is a ridiculous amount of work to put in just to get your spy caught by the police, especially if you have a lot of spies. I see spying as the sort of thing you would set up then if you so wish can just forget about until you start having espionage trouble (losing income, research etc to it). With the system I outlined you would still have as much control over everything as you could possibly want, and with the ability to choose where and what your spies do I don't see how it wouldn't be any fun.

However, on the line of leaders and ships;
Having leaders which give your spies special abilities as well as bonuses would be really cool, having a seperate slot or two for espionage leaders/trainers would be nice.
As for ships, intelligence ships would be awesome, they could be able to (if successful) invisibly sit in a system without anyone knowing (and thus they cannot be attacked until seen by specially adapted radars etc). These ships would then allow you to track enemy fleet movement and see what their systems are doing without having to pull a defensive fleet away or mass an assault when it may be premature.

Satyagraha
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#12 Post by Satyagraha »

haravikk wrote:As for ships, intelligence ships would be awesome, they could be able to (if successful) invisibly sit in a system without anyone knowing (and thus they cannot be attacked until seen by specially adapted radars etc). These ships would then allow you to track enemy fleet movement and see what their systems are doing without having to pull a defensive fleet away or mass an assault when it may be premature.

what is the benefit in splitting up spying and intelligence?
what was moo3 spying like (my whole moo3 experience was 20min in time ;) )?

i think spies & intelligence ships could be combined, something like SMAC probe teams. as long as there is an intelligence ship in an enemy system, the player can do special actions like sabotage etc in that system. whenever the ship is entering a new enemy system, there is a chance to get caught, so trying to spy on a homesystem will be more risky than checking out outposts.

haravikk
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#13 Post by haravikk »

Well I see spying itself as the more damaging aspect of things, having to move a ship before spying can begin would be somewhat tedious.
What I am thinking for intelligence ships is more of a strategic thing only, you place intelligence ships into systems you can't really afford to defend all the time so you have advance warning of enemy fleets and can respond accordingly, or can keep any eye on an enemy system you intend to attack to see if it is massing a defence.

Blueicus
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Spies

#14 Post by Blueicus »

Perhaps a MoO2-like spy system is a good compromise? I lost the MoO3 CD soon after I got it, so I have extremely limited experience with MoO3 in general.

Like guiguibaah, I do not like the Civ3 espionage system (i.e. insert a spy, success or failure), mostly because it was extremely frustrating in trying to get a spy into the empire in the first place. In MoO2, spies were built like ordinary units (I think having a separate branch for building spies would be better, but anyways...). After these spies are built, they can either be sent on general intelligence duties (alien intelligence, counter-intelligence) or on more specific missions (like getting enemy troop locations, sabotage, technology theft, etc.).

With regards to haravikk's idea, I think the duties of an intelligence ship can be rightfully covered by improvements (such as a powerful scanning array), or ships with specific spaceship parts that increase scanning power (sort of a more general definition of the intelligence ship- a lightly armed vessel that can peek at distant systems and detect fleets from far away).

haravikk
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#15 Post by haravikk »

MOO2's system wasn't overly taxing, however would you agree that building the individual units seems out of place? For a start it seems strange to be spying on an entire galactic civilisation with no more than 60 spies. But also building in this way is tedius and moving individual spies to an empire as they are built is worse still.

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