When is Ground Combat??

[jbarcz1]

A question for the design team....
I'd like to write up a detailed proposal for ground combat, and also space combat as it pertains to the ground. I'm not going to post it until official deliberation begins, but I may start throwing some things together now if I get time.

Does anybody remember where detailed combat (ground and space) fits into the version roadmap? 0.3? 0.4?

JB

[drek]

I suspect an updated roadmap is going to be posted fairly soon, at least that was my impression.

As for when detailed combat is slated to be designed, I'd guess later than v.3 or v.4. The twin monsters tech tree and buildings are probably ahead in line.

[Nightfish]

I think only aquitaine can answer that as he was going to rearrange the old roadmap. Personally I'm not sure if it's such a bad idea to post a decent proposal if you have one. Far be it from me to question the way we do things, but why shouldn't we pass a feature if we have a decent proposal? Especially if it's something stand-alonish like ground combat.

[drek]

Ground combat could easily be combined with space combat or abstracted away entirely. It's not 100% certain to be a standalone engine.

But if you really have an terrible itch to post a bunch of stuffs about ground combat to brainstorming, then why not? I'd keep a copy on a hard drive for when the idea is revisted in the formal design process.

[Nightfish]

I meant a standalone decision. Unlike governments or spying, the concept of ground combat doesn't need any other things to be decided.

[utilae]

A question for the design team....
I'd like to write up a detailed proposal for ground combat, and also space combat as it pertains to the ground. I'm not going to post it until official deliberation begins, but I may start throwing some things together now if I get time.

JB

Post it early if you want (gives us something to look at). You should probably take into account:
-ground to space defences (potential targets on the ground)
-ground to ground defences (protect from ground forces)
-patrolling enemy ground forces
-troop pods, and the struggle to land (with pd defences)
-territories

And if we link it closely with space combat what affects will ground combat have on space combat

By the way, I'm also dreaming up an idea for space combat.

[Nightfish]

I don't like the idea of mixing ground combat with space combat for several reasons.

First of all the confusion it creates. When will you switch between the two battlefields? The player will constantly have to regain his bearings as you toss him from ground to space and back.

Second, it does not seem all that wise to send your troop ships to the planet without having neutralised the opposing fleet.

Third, what do you do if the planet has a shield? Do you suggest that troops ships can fly straight through that thing?

[drek]

First of all the confusion it creates. When will you switch between the two battlefields? The player will constantly have to regain his bearings as you toss him from ground to space and back.

Never. There's no switch. You see the planets on the battle screen. A text scroll above the planet with a cool fading effect tells you what's happening on the planet. "3 Troops Pod from Star Destroyer 5 have been defeated." "The Shield Generator has been destoryed!"

Second, it does not seem all that wise to send your troop ships to the planet without having neutralised the opposing fleet.

eh? Why not? Happens all the time in sci-fi.

Let's say you just want troops to do as much damage as possible or go on a raiding mission but you can't maintain space superiority. Your space ships would presumably be keeping the enemy fleet busy so the troop pods can land safely and return, then you'd try to warp out of system once their mission is complete.

Sounds like fun to me.

Third, what do you do if the planet has a shield? Do you suggest that troops ships can fly straight through that thing?

There are numerous sci-fi examples of shields that could *only* be taken out by ground action. The first book of Dune, the battle of Hoth, and a few star trek episodes spring to mind.

Maybe certain defensive type structures would do damage to troop pods on the way down, so it's to your advantage to destroy them with space based weaponry before dropping your soldiers. Or maybe certain defensive structures are resistant to strikes from space--so the easiest way of destroying would be to send in the troop pods.

Seems to me that plenty o' interesting tactical situations can be conjured if we combine ground combat and space combat in the same phase of the game.

[krum]

So we can sum up the planetary combat building types we want like this?

Ground batteries vs landing troops; (troop defence)
Missile bases; (missile attack)
Anti-missile rockets batteries; (missile defence)
Ground beam batteries; (beam attack)
Shield versus beams; (beam defence)


Btw, I like the idea about battles on the map of the whole solar system, with ground combat and space combat integrated.

[Tyreth]

Slightly off the topic of the current conversation...

It could be fun if troops were landed manually if in combat with an enemy fleet at a planet. If you destroy all their forces you can land all your troops - but you may want a quick drop and take over the planet before their ships have time to stop you.

So if having the planet on the ship battle scene - we could have ships able to drop troops onto the planet in the middle of the battle.

The combat you propose could work, drek - just showing updates above the planet as the battle rages. But I'm not sure if that's what people will want - maybe a more in depth ground battle, or something with a visual component.

I'm pretty neutral on it at the moment - but I think it would be fun to have the ability to sneak troops onto a planet in the middle of a battle.

[jbarcz1]

Slightly off the topic of the current conversation...

I'm pretty neutral on it at the moment - but I think it would be fun to have the ability to sneak troops onto a planet in the middle of a battle.

I agree. It's an awesome idea, and it's going into any proposal that I write. I also want the transports to be able to carry and launch decoys with their troop pods. So it might be a viable tactic to jump a transport in-system, launch lots of troop pods and decoys, then pull out and leave the ground troops to capture the planet. You could sortof do this in MOO1, by sending scores of transports to throw themselves at the missile bases.

I would like to see space and surface combat resolved seperately, as there are some ideas I have for giving the player some fine control over ground combat. I'll post them once I've got them finalized, but my overall goal is to have a system like MOO3, where you choose an attack strategy, but in this case, the strategies are more distinct, and you're able to see their effects. Also, only the side with the initiative chooses the strategy. The other side will automatically attempt to thrwart it, and can try to seize the initiative, at the risk of heavier casualties. So, the attacker starts with the initiative, but if the defender inflicts heavy losses, they gain the initiative, and the roles are suddenly reversed.

You could probably automate some of this and resolve it simultaneous with space combat if thats what people want, but I think it'd be more fun to be able to control it.

JB

[jbarcz1]

For combats intended to conquer the entire planet, I'd favor having that seperate from space combat. But there's nothing wrong with sending troops to raid enemy space defenses or blow up buildings during space combat.

I'm thinking of having two different types of 'troop'. There's the kind you deploy to conquer the planet, which are big, division sized units. Then there's the kind you deploy to conduct raids or capture ships, which might be smaller raiding parties. Raids and boarding actions could be resolved in space combat while full-blown surface campaigns could be resolved seperately.

So, in terms of ship components, there would be 'assault shuttles' which carry raiding parties, and 'landing shuttles' which provide space to land conquering troops. The latter would obviously take up much more space.

[utilae]

I don't like the idea of mixing ground combat with space combat for several reasons.

I think it would be cool.

First of all the confusion it creates. When will you switch between the two battlefields? The player will constantly have to regain his bearings as you toss him from ground to space and back.

If a troop pod survives pd fire and lands, you will be given the option to do ground combat. You can wait for more troop pods to land, if you want, and then choose to engage in ground combat. My idea is that space combat would then halt (to be continued when ground combat ends). Space combat would begin and could carry on for multiple turns. When it finishes space combat would begin and possible not end for many more turns. Both ground and space combat would take an equal amount of time and then have to be carried on over the next turn.

At the start of each ground or space combat it could say Batttle at Sol-turn 2, or something. The player also does not need to worry about finishing ground or space combat quickly because both would carry on over to the next turn.

Second, it does not seem all that wise to send your troop ships to the planet without having neutralised the opposing fleet.

It's just like sending a troop pod at the enemy ship to capture it (Moo2), why not send one to the planet, pd fire will be a pain, but that's a good way to defend, you could always obliterate the planet when no enemies are left and send in ground troops then.

Third, what do you do if the planet has a shield? Do you suggest that troops ships can fly straight through that thing?

No, your ships have to destroy the shield, unless there is a tech for getting around the problem.

[utilae]

Slightly off the topic of the current conversation...

It could be fun if troops were landed manually if in combat with an enemy fleet at a planet. If you destroy all their forces you can land all your troops - but you may want a quick drop and take over the planet before their ships have time to stop you.

So if having the planet on the ship battle scene - we could have ships able to drop troops onto the planet in the middle of the battle.

The combat you propose could work, drek - just showing updates above the planet as the battle rages. But I'm not sure if that's what people will want - maybe a more in depth ground battle, or something with a visual component.

I'm pretty neutral on it at the moment - but I think it would be fun to have the ability to sneak troops onto a planet in the middle of a battle.

I say as soon as troop pods land, we have the option to enter ground combat. When we choose to enter ground combat, space combat halts and ground combat starts. You have a ground combat battle, that's as playable and in depth as space combat. When ground combat ends, mission completed, you decide when, you continue space combat.

Now I'm assuming that space combat is going to be TB, it suits this better. Space combat can be whatever.

[PowerCrazy]

No. I think i'd prefer a system of msgs appearing over the planet. Or if you have space superiority, a screen like moo2. You choose to invade, bombard or my favorite "destroy" the planet. However you can send troop pods to the planet to inflict more specifc damage during space combat. They would travel just like a pack of missiles, but when they landed they would either try to Capture the planet, or cause some general destruction. It would be very similiar to raiding a ship in Moo2. I REALLY don't like the idea of switching between space and ground combat seemingly at random. And also i don't find ground combat that exciting or even necessary. It seems wasteful to focus on haveing a completely seperate battle engine for something that shouldn't be that critical anyway. If I have 60 planets in my empire, and i'm trying to take over ONE, i should be able to do it. I simply send 10X the target planets population in troops and it should be mine, NO problem.

Ground combat should definetly be numbers based ala Moo and Moo2. My troops get bonuses depending on number, and tech. Yours get the same. Whoever has more wins. Easy, Efficient, Effective.