"Deep Space" - empty starlane junctures

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderators: Oberlus, Oberlus

Message
Author
User avatar
Steve
Space Floater
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:10 pm

Re: "Deep Space" - empty starlane junctures

#16 Post by Steve » Wed May 23, 2012 1:46 pm

Bigjoe5 wrote:It used to be that the standard hull was the smallest hull with internal slots; since having even 1 internal slot allows you to do cool special stuff that ships without such slots can't do, it makes sense that not every hull gets one. I wouldn't mind going back to that. That doesn't remove the need for large slots, though. It seems wrong that a laser takes the same amount of space as a Laser Cannon, and I'm not at all a fan of requiring multiple parts to get the effect of what is conceptually a single "part".
I'd argue, though, that a "colony" is NOT a single part. Sure, there are examples of such... but realistically, most 1-ship "colonies" in history were closer to refugees and exiles. Genuine, state-sponsored "colonies" tended to be multi-ship expeditions, and furthermore had a steady stream of followup ships bringing additional supplies, further colonists (specialists needed after a few years, but deadweight at startup... ), etc etc etc.

OTOH, maybe I'm straying into "realism" here, and should start looking nervously 'round for tar & feathers...? :wink:

User avatar
Bigjoe5
Designer and Programmer
Posts: 2058
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:33 pm
Location: Orion

Re: "Deep Space" - empty starlane junctures

#17 Post by Bigjoe5 » Thu May 24, 2012 2:42 am

Steve wrote:OTOH, maybe I'm straying into "realism" here, and should start looking nervously 'round for tar & feathers...? :wink:
Well, yeah. From a gameplay point of view, the colony pod does one thing, and so it should be one part. Likewise, a Stellar Converter does one thing, and should be one part. Sure, there would probably be a lot of different components coming together to make it do that one thing: it would need to be integrated with the ship's power supply, it would need an external mounting, it would need specialized controls and security... but all of that is abstracted into something called a large external slot, just like a colony pod is abstracted into something that fits into a small internal slot.
Warning: Antarans in dimensional portal are closer than they appear.

User avatar
Steve
Space Floater
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:10 pm

Re: "Deep Space" - empty starlane junctures

#18 Post by Steve » Thu May 24, 2012 4:02 am

Bigjoe5 wrote:
Steve wrote:OTOH, maybe I'm straying into "realism" here, and should start looking nervously 'round for tar & feathers...? :wink:
Well, yeah. From a gameplay point of view, the colony pod does one thing, and so it should be one part. Likewise, a Stellar Converter does one thing, and should be one part. Sure, there would probably be a lot of different components coming together to make it do that one thing: it would need to be integrated with the ship's power supply, it would need an external mounting, it would need specialized controls and security... but all of that is abstracted into something called a large external slot, just like a colony pod is abstracted into something that fits into a small internal slot.
What I was trying to say is that "conceptually" (i.e. "what is a colony"), it's extraordinarily large and complex. Sure, the Cryonic pod may be (relatively) small; but the "basic" colony -- people, livestock, equipment that they cannot build locally (including starship refueling facilities!) is NOT a "small" something. The fundamental "concept" calls for a small convoy, not a single ship... unless it's an INCREDIBLY vast ship...

I mean, I can see the argument that the "colony pod" is a single "part" that does a single thing. But there's a HUGE amount of abstraction behind the idea of a "productive planet," and a "colony pod" carries ALL that abstraction inherent in it.

I'm not actually arguing that a "colony pod" should be broken out into multiple parts that need multiple slots, only that it's a valid and viable approach. I suppose, if I were arguing this, I'd be arguing that a "Colony Pod" should be an upgrade to an existing "Outpost," or some such...


My actual assertion is simple: I think a "Colony" should be kept as a larger item. Currently that's done (a bit clumsily) by having a "Colony Ship Hull" that's large/slow/expensive to build, but (as noted) it's easy to design a MUCH smaller/cheaper/faster-to-build "Colony Ship V.2"


- Steve

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5293
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: "Deep Space" - empty starlane junctures

#19 Post by Vezzra » Thu May 24, 2012 3:17 pm

Steve wrote:I'd be reluctant to see a "colony" require a hull-type unavailable at the start of play, so if a "large" hull-type (needed for "large" parts) was needed for a colony, I'd like to see it available up-front.
I agree, having to go through researching several techs before you can build a colony ship would just slow down the game without adding much interesting aspects or choices, hence just be a pain. But the solution for that is easy: Provide at least one hull at the start of the game with one "large" slot.
One idea: split a "colony" into multiple ship-parts:
- Colonial Equipment
- Colonial Crops & Livestock
- Colonial Personnel
You can deliver a colony with any combination of hulls totaling 3 internal slots...
This would be another way to make sure that "large" parts can only be placed on sufficiently "large" hulls. However, this solution seems cumbersome to me. It makes designing more painful because you have to place several parts instead of one (unnecessary clicks), and you'd have to implement more complex validation code because you's have to make sure a ship can only be designed/function as intended if the proper combination of ship parts are present. Going the "large" slots for "large" parts road seems easier and a more elegant solution to me.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5293
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: "Deep Space" - empty starlane junctures

#20 Post by Vezzra » Thu May 24, 2012 3:37 pm

Bigjoe5 wrote:It used to be that the standard hull was the smallest hull with internal slots; since having even 1 internal slot allows you to do cool special stuff that ships without such slots can't do, it makes sense that not every hull gets one. I wouldn't mind going back to that. That doesn't remove the need for large slots, though. It seems wrong that a laser takes the same amount of space as a Laser Cannon,...
Seconded.

Suggestion: basic small hull: 2 external slots; basic medium hull: 2 external, 1 internal slot; standard hulls (which I'd suggest to rename to "basic large hull" for consistency sake): 3 external, 1 "large" internal slot.

However, we need to decide how this "large" slot type should be implemented. In the discussion above we've been talking about "production modules" and "colony pods" (parts you'd place in internal slots) and you've just mentioned a "laser cannon" (something which has to go into an external slot) as examples for "large" parts. So the question is: should we introduce two additional slot types: "large internal" and "large external", or should "large" be something like a "tag" for the two slot types that makes them able to receive "large" ship parts? Because this impacts how component placement is going to work in the UI, and also how these concepts are handled in the content scripts.
...and I'm not at all a fan of requiring multiple parts to get the effect of what is conceptually a single "part".
I strongly agree.

User avatar
em3
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:51 pm

Re: "Deep Space" - empty starlane junctures

#21 Post by em3 » Thu May 24, 2012 10:05 pm

Vezzra wrote:I agree, having to go through researching several techs before you can build a colony ship would just slow down the game without adding much interesting aspects or choices, hence just be a pain. But the solution for that is easy: Provide at least one hull at the start of the game with one "large" slot.
What's more, we could provide an initial hull that is merely a rig for connecting the equipment to an engine, a bare-bones hull that has practically no armor, no shields, only an engine and a single "large" slot. This would enable colonizing as soon as the colonization is researched, but encourage to research sturdier/faster hulls for further "mission" ships.
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

User avatar
marhawkman
Large Juggernaut
Posts: 938
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:34 pm
Location: GA

Re: "Deep Space" - empty starlane junctures

#22 Post by marhawkman » Fri May 25, 2012 4:19 pm

Hypothesis: The core of a "colony" in game is the spaceport. IE the facility for moving goods and personnel on/off world.

conclusion: the Realism concerns are assuming that the colony pod contains ALL of the materials for building the colony. But, using this assumption, the spaceport is how the bulk of the stuff actually gets there.

It's kinda like how the seaside colonies would always build a Dock as one of the first things they built.
Computer programming is fun.

Post Reply