Social Meters

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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drek
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#16 Post by drek »

Mineral Efficiency
Mining Labor Efficiency
Mining Infrastructure Cost
Mining Maintenance Cost
All of these factors would be controlled by a single meter. I'm not a fan of infrastructure having a cost to build or maintain--but if these factors are in the game, they would be improved once the Mining meter reached a certain level.

If every concievable factor becomes it's own meter, there is no benefit to the system. This is equivlent to the "normal" way of doing things: each tech (etc etc) directly manipulating economy engine variables.

There should be, at most, a dozen meters.

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Ragnar
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#17 Post by Ragnar »

12 or less: Agreed.

Inputs effect meters.
Meters effect outputs.
Just like SMAC, but better. :)

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Krikkitone
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#18 Post by Krikkitone »

Your talking about the Totality of All the effects that Anything can have in the Entire Game reduced to ~12 different numbers.

This is possible if Each number has multiple effects, but that removes those effects from differentiation. (for either Modding or strategy or game balancing)

I could see that if this was Only the Economic portion or Only the Diplo/Spy/Politics Portion or Only the Military Portion it could be less than 12.

I'd have to say for the entire game at Least 15 to as many as 40, ~25 might be reasonable.

Although it might be possible if those meters combined for various effects..but that makes balancing even more convoluted, and strategy even more unnecessarily complex and counterintuitive.

While a reasonably small number could be chosen, the choice of those and what game effects they connect to will have a Major effect on the game engine itself preventing further decisions.

emrys
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#19 Post by emrys »

drek wrote:Another quick thought: occurs to me that Powercrazy's Infrastructure would be our first meter, though it would operate via slightly different rules than the others.
I agree that infrastructure is our first meter, and we should try to set the design of the other meters so that they all follow the same rules.

The idea seems to be to abstract and separate the design a little, to put a simplified and consistent layer between the weird and wonderful ideas we come up with for buildings, techs, UI, development etc, and the hard, rigid and inflexible world of actually coding the game rules, so as to reduce the nightmare of coding all our ideas to a mere panic attack.

All our weird and wonderful ideas should have some effect on one or more of the limited number of meters, the results in the game would then be defined in terms of the meters, the rules for which would be relatively unchanging.

I.e. infrastructure. Infrastructure is a (float) value between 0 and 10 defined for each planet. First we we define rules that determine the output of planets based on their infrastructure, and the maximum rate of investment on a planet etc. Once that is done we can we develop techs that manipulate infrastructure, planetary specials, imperial buildings etc, in any way and in any combination with other properties that we like, without in any way affecting the game rules for the results of infrastructure. In fact the self growth of infrastructure is simply another bolt on rule.

N.b. "limited number of meters" should be taken as meaning less than all the outputs of the economy, and less than all the inputs, but still a fairly largish number, |I'd guess that at worse we might be heading into the thirty to forty level, but probably between 10-20.

drek
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#20 Post by drek »

Actually, now that I think about it there are already 4 meters implemented in the game:

Farming
Mining
Industry
Research

with Economics (money) to follow.

Setting a focus manipulates these meters on the planet level. On the empire level, technology, racial picks, etc. will modify the base of these meters.

For whatever reason, this epiphany has made it fairly obvious how to balance the currently unbalanced economy. Currently, setting primary focus to farming gives +6 food per turn, and +1 to everything else. What if setting primary focus to farming only gave +3 to food and nothing else? The remaining bonuses would be distributed via tech, buildings, etc etc.

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#21 Post by emrys »

drek wrote: For whatever reason, this epiphany has made it fairly obvious how to balance the currently unbalanced economy.
Dumb Question: what's unbalanced about the current economy?

Aquitaine
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#22 Post by Aquitaine »

I like this system. A lot a lot. Especially because we've seen it in SMAC and we know it works, and it's simple, and, yeah. Meters.

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dstjames
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Meters

#23 Post by dstjames »

I like this idea a lot as well. I think it simplifies things. I definately dont like the idea of 25 to 40 meters though. That is WAY too much to keep track of. I think around 10 to 15 is the right number.

My only other concern is that Drek said that any bounus that would raise you above the meter would be disregarded. I dont know if I like that idea. I think that racial abilities/penaltys should be able to raise it above or below the limit. If not then it negates the racial ability of say a production heavy race later in the game when everyone has high techs that are pushing the meters to the top. While other races such as better gunners will still get their racial ability bonus.

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Krikkitone
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#24 Post by Krikkitone »

I agree that the Meters need to be more Unbound.

Also some of them would be planetary (economic types)
Some would be relational (One Empire's Intelligence Meter against another Empire)

If every part of the game is based on Meters, then they would have to be at least 30 or so becuase it would include
Weapon Accuracy
Evasion Ability
Weapon Damage
Damage Capacity (HP)
etc.

That's 4 for Nothing but shooting back and forth in combat... because Different things will influence those differently they Have to be Seperate Meters. Now you Could compress them all into a 'Combat Ability'.. but that would mean that All Military Techs would be Interchangable (all give a certain Bonus to the 'Combat Ability' Meter) and there would only be one Military Race Pick.

We Might be able to pull off 15-20 Meters and still end up with a decent game, but for every one we gave up we would lose options (for gameplay and effective game balancing)

Satyagraha
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#25 Post by Satyagraha »

i´d like to see some of the meters influence each other, like low health having an impact on growth & happiness. There are already enough 4X games where people will starve to death with a smile on their face ;)

Another meter that would be nice to have is an equivalent to "Culture" in Civ3.

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#26 Post by krum »

Satyagraha wrote:i´d like to see some of the meters influence each other, like low health having an impact on growth & happiness. There are already enough 4X games where people will starve to death with a smile on their face ;)

Another meter that would be nice to have is an equivalent to "Culture" in Civ3.
You're getting the worng idea about this; the meters are supposed to determine the global modifiers for the actual local values.

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#27 Post by drek »

He's got the right idea.

A super low health score should effect happiness. There are both empire meters that efffect every planet, and then the actual local values on each planet.

Part of the orginal idea is that the effects of the meters become more extreme at the lower and upper bounds. This is so that there is a significant advantage to having a "7" over a say a "4".....because there's no multiplication, only addition and subtraction to meters. (it's important that there's no multiplication, except for defining the base score of the meter. Explaining the math is too much thinking for my current frame of mind.)

I'm still working this stuff out, but "soon" I'll put up an unofficial first draft social meter doc on the wiki that should make things a bit clearer.

*back to sleep*
zzzz

guiguibaah
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Meters

#28 Post by guiguibaah »

That's a pretty good idea re: meters and planet specs - looking forward to Drek's rough draft!

Some other options that are ship related - right off the top of my head.

Weapon Accuracy
Weapon Strength

Ship Durability
Ship Evasiveness

Ship Experience
Ship Morale

Ground Troop Effectiveness

Support

Diplomacy likeability
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emrys
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#29 Post by emrys »

@Krikkitone & Guiguibaah: I think the idea is that there will be a shed load of "game engine parameters" such as you've been listing, and there will be an indeterminate (but large) number of things the player can alter or influence or just be lumbered with (such as race picks, build choices, mineral richness of planets, government types?, focii of planets etc.) and that the "inputs" will be connected to the "ouputs" via one or more of these "meters", thus simplifying the design.

For example:

Mining stuff:

Inputs: race picks (super miners/avian etc./lithovore), ethical choices (e.g. strip mine planets yes/no), mining focus on planets, mineral richness

Outputs: Minerals produced, Food produced, Terraforming of planets

Meters: Mining, Food, Environment

how do we connect I to O via M?

Race picks: super miners (+1 to mining meter)
avian( -1 to mining)
lithovore (-1 to mining, +1 to food)

Choices : Strip Mine - no = no effect, yes = +1 to mining, -1 to environment

Focus of planet (using current numbers : if mining primary focus = mining+6, +3 if balanced, 0 if focused on something else, secondary +2,+1,0 respectively)

Mineral richness, maybe -2 to +2?

So if you are a lithovoric, super mining race, who've taken the Planetary strip mining special choice, and have a mining/balanced mineral poor (-1) ocean world, your inputs go

Code: Select all

Item               Mining Food Environment

lithovore          -1     +1
super mining       +1
strip mining       +1          -1
mining/balanced    +7     +1      
mineral poor       -1
terran                    -1

result             +7     +1   -1                       
so you then map the result to the output tables and get: +7 mining = 7 minerals per turn per unit of population, +1 food = 1 unit of food per turn per unit of population, -1 environment = Environment of planet decays by one step every ten turns.

But note that each meter could have multiple effects, and game effects could be determined by the combination of two meters, e.g. population growth might be determined by the sum of food and environment, so in this case pop growth could be 0.The probability of getting a 'environmentalists sabotage mines' event could be determined by the sum of the mining meter and the environment meter, i.e. +6 mining is not worth -8 environment.

So for the combat related effects, there would be a more limited number of meters (e.g. aggresiveness, military tradition, natural skill) these could then be combined in differing ways and proportions to give the output factors:

e.g.
weapon accuracy modifier = natural skill
evasion ability = 4 parts natural skill + 1 part miltary tradition
ship morale modifier =aggresiveness + military tradition
ship experience bouns = military thinking
Ground troup effectiveness = 2*aggresiveness + 1*military tradition + 2*natural skill
Chance of following orders to disengage= 2*military tradition - 1*aggresiveness

This way you could have a myriad of race picks, choices, events and technologies that change the three meters, and a myriad of effects resulting from those meters, without having to change everything in the game every time you change one of the choices or effects: so long as the meters remain unchanged nothing else gets broken by a change to an input or output. (except perhaps game balance).

N.b. Things like weapon strength would be entirely dependant on technology, so no other factors can affect it (a plasma beam has the same damage rating whoever uses it, wherever, however). The same reasoning applies to ship durability. Things like these would of course not be part of the input-meter-output idea.

EDIT: I'm now getting the impression this is NOT what other people (e.g. Drek initially) meant when they were talking about meters. so treat it as a suggestion not an explanation.
Last edited by emrys on Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

krum
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#30 Post by krum »

drek wrote:He's got the right idea.

A super low health score should effect happiness. There are both empire meters that efffect every planet, and then the actual local values on each planet.
Exactly, I mean the local health value should of course impact the local happiness value, but I don't see a reason for this at the global level. Unless it's a real simple formula so the effect is the same.

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