Why are supply lanes visible?

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Why are supply lanes visible?

#16 Post by Geoff the Medio »

eleazar wrote:Star lane segments should be supply lines for only one empire...
I'd extend that to also make Systems only able to provide resupply / only under the control of one empire. It's a bit quirky from a realism standpoint, but it would make display and understanding game state much simpler.

To deal with cases where more than one empire could use a starlane or supply a system, the easiest thing would probably be to just have whichever empire has the largest range at a system get control. Note: each starlane jump deducts 1 from range, and having aggressive fleets in a system can block supply propagation into a system. If two empires have equal range at a system, then whichever has a supply source closest in jumps, then in direct line distance wins. If that's all equal, nobody can supply the system.
From a creature design standpoint it is easy to image how biologically or technologically a species might make their presence on a planet undetectable from space. The same traits don't extend to making any sense that their Mark V's are harder to find than anybody else's.
That depends how stealth is implemented, similarly to structure. There are parts that boost structure of ships (armour), and there are techs (eg. Reinforced Hull) that boost ship structure regardless of its parts. Similarly, a ship could have a cloaking device or fancy hull plating, or it could have a species crewing it that psionically manipulate space around the ship to make it less detectable.

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eleazar
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Re: Why are supply lanes visible?

#17 Post by eleazar »

Geoff the Medio wrote:
eleazar wrote:Star lane segments should be supply lines for only one empire...
I'd extend that to also make Systems only able to provide resupply / only under the control of one empire. It's a bit quirky from a realism standpoint, but it would make display and understanding game state much simpler.

To deal with cases where more than one empire could use a starlane or supply a system, the easiest thing would probably be to just have whichever empire has the largest range at a system get control. Note: each starlane jump deducts 1 from range, and having aggressive fleets in a system can block supply propagation into a system. If two empires have equal range at a system, then whichever has a supply source closest in jumps, then in direct line distance wins. If that's all equal, nobody can supply the system.
It may be possible to keep things simple to display and understand, but also in certain reasonably intuitive conditions have multiple empires providing supply to the same system. I need to do some mock-ups to solidify my thoughts, but the mechanics are similar to what you describe above.

EDIT: Mockup achieved:
supply-lanes.png
supply-lanes.png (21.2 KiB) Viewed 426 times
The numbers are the highest supply meter in the system.

RULES:
  • 1) Planets project supply lines with the strength of their supply meter. After each jump the strength decreases by 1.
    2) In the event of a conflict the strongest lane wins.
    3) In the even of a tie each takes half of the lane.
    4a) Ships are supplied in any system that their empire has a supply line to. For instance system "G" is supplied by both Yellow and Blue.
    4b) Ships are supplied in any system where their empire has a colony.
    5) Supply lines cannot be projected through enemy fleets, nor though other empire's planets, except during blockades.
    6) When multiple empires have planets in the same system, the one with the strongest single supply meter wins. (See system "F") When tied, any additional planets in system are counted. If still tied nobody projects supply.
    7) Exception to #6: A lane that connects to a planet of the same empire, is accounted to that empire. (See "E" and "F")
The rules probably could be stated more consistent and concisely, but i think i covered the possibilities. If there are problems, or excessive complications, it can be simplified.

Geoff the Medio wrote:
eleazar wrote:From a creature design standpoint it is easy to image how biologically or technologically a species might make their presence on a planet undetectable from space. The same traits don't extend to making any sense that their Mark V's are harder to find than anybody else's.
That depends how stealth is implemented, similarly to structure. There are parts that boost structure of ships (armour), and there are techs (eg. Reinforced Hull) that boost ship structure regardless of its parts. Similarly, a ship could have a cloaking device or fancy hull plating, or it could have a species crewing it that psionically manipulate space around the ship to make it less detectable.
Yeah, i was more referring to the current batch of stealthy species -- that the explanation for hiding a civilization and ship may be very different, and not work for both. I wasn't saying that no explanation would work for species ship stealth.

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Re: Why are supply lanes visible?

#18 Post by Zireael »

I like the mockup.

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qsswin
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Re: Why are supply lanes visible?

#19 Post by qsswin »

eleazar wrote:
  • 1) Planets project supply lines with the strength of their supply meter. After each jump the strength decreases by 1.
    2) In the event of a conflict the strongest lane wins.
    3) In the even of a tie each takes half of the lane.
    4a) Ships are supplied in any system that their empire has a supply line to. For instance system "G" is supplied by both Yellow and Blue.
    4b) Ships are supplied in any system where their empire has a colony.
    5) Supply lines cannot be projected through enemy fleets, nor though other empire's planets, except during blockades.
    6) When multiple empires have planets in the same system, the one with the strongest single supply meter wins. (See system "F") When tied, any additional planets in system are counted. If still tied nobody projects supply.
    7) Exception to #6: A lane that connects to a planet of the same empire, is accounted to that empire. (See "E" and "F")
Exactly what does "taking half the lane" mean? Do they both have connection to either side of the lane, or to only one side?
What does "except during blockades" mean? Are you planning to make blockades some sort of special action you take, not something automatic? And why would blockades make the blockadee better off?

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Krikkitone
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Re: Why are supply lanes visible?

#20 Post by Krikkitone »

qsswin wrote:
eleazar wrote:
  • 1) Planets project supply lines with the strength of their supply meter. After each jump the strength decreases by 1.
    2) In the event of a conflict the strongest lane wins.
    3) In the even of a tie each takes half of the lane.
    4a) Ships are supplied in any system that their empire has a supply line to. For instance system "G" is supplied by both Yellow and Blue.
    4b) Ships are supplied in any system where their empire has a colony.
    5) Supply lines cannot be projected through enemy fleets, nor though other empire's planets, except during blockades.
    6) When multiple empires have planets in the same system, the one with the strongest single supply meter wins. (See system "F") When tied, any additional planets in system are counted. If still tied nobody projects supply.
    7) Exception to #6: A lane that connects to a planet of the same empire, is accounted to that empire. (See "E" and "F")
Exactly what does "taking half the lane" mean? Do they both have connection to either side of the lane, or to only one side?
What does "except during blockades" mean? Are you planning to make blockades some sort of special action you take, not something automatic? And why would blockades make the blockadee better off?

I think he means if an enemy planet is blockaded, then the planet cannot blockade someone else.

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Re: Why are supply lanes visible?

#21 Post by AndrewW »

What about putting more then one line in different colors if more then one empire can supply the system? Just side by side.

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em3
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Re: Why are supply lanes visible?

#22 Post by em3 »

AndrewW wrote:What about putting more then one line in different colors if more then one empire can supply the system? Just side by side.
This will become unreadable for more than two empires. If there will be an alliance of 3+ empires with decent supply techs, the whole map will look quite festive.
https://github.com/macmodrov
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Why are supply lanes visible?

#23 Post by Geoff the Medio »

eleazar wrote:6) When multiple empires have planets in the same system, the one with the strongest single supply meter wins. (See system "F") When tied, any additional planets in system are counted. If still tied nobody projects supply.
7) Exception to #6: A lane that connects to a planet of the same empire, is accounted to that empire. (See "E" and "F")
What if the yellow empire has supply range 2 in system E and range 1 in system F, and the blue empire has range 1 in system E and range 2 in system F? Both would seem to be connected at both systems.

I'm still inclined to think it's best to have each system be supplyable by at most one empire, even if another empire has a (weaker) supply-capable planet in the system.

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eleazar
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Re: Why are supply lanes visible?

#24 Post by eleazar »

qsswin wrote:Exactly what does "taking half the lane" mean? Do they both have connection to either side of the lane, or to only one side?
As i'm thinking the half-lanes are merely a graphical detail to show how an empire's supply pushes against another. In the mockup above, yellow doesn't have supply at "E".

qsswin wrote:What does "except during blockades" mean? Are you planning to make blockades some sort of special action you take, not something automatic? And why would blockades make the blockadee better off?
For these purposes it doesn't matter how "blockade" is defined, though i see no reason to change the definition. For example, Green has Red blockaded at "B", thus "B" is not creating or blocking supply lines, and lines from "A" can go through it.
supply lanes3.jpg
supply lanes3.jpg (33.47 KiB) Viewed 402 times
em3 wrote:
AndrewW wrote:What about putting more then one line in different colors if more then one empire can supply the system? Just side by side.
This will become unreadable for more than two empires. If there will be an alliance of 3+ empires with decent supply techs, the whole map will look quite festive.
Yeah, that would be a better option visually than Dilvish's earlier examples, but i've done mock-ups of that, and it does tend to blend psychedelically, especially as the number o empires increase.
Besides I think giving empires a more concrete "area-of-influence" is desirable and interesting.

Geoff the Medio wrote:What if the yellow empire has supply range 2 in system E and range 1 in system F, and the blue empire has range 1 in system E and range 2 in system F? Both would seem to be connected at both systems.
In that case, i think it would be a tie, "E" & "F" would be supply connected for neither empire. It would look like the lanes between "E" and "H".
Geoff the Medio wrote:I'm still inclined to think it's best to have each system be supplyable by at most one empire, even if another empire has a (weaker) supply-capable planet in the system.
Consider this example:
supply lanes2.jpg
supply lanes2.jpg (22.03 KiB) Viewed 402 times
The most intuitive result is that both Orange and Purple will be supplied at "B". Only granting supply to one empire due to a difference in UU, is IMHO is more likely to introduce confusing and improbable situations than something along the lines i'm proposing. In short, I think what i'm describing will be simpler, more intuitive for the player, while possibly more complicated to code.

Also the rules i'm describing are supposed to work the same for ships and planets. I don't think only one empire at "F" (in the first mockup) should be supply connected there. Are you suggesting the opposite?

Finally, one-supplier-per-system will require some sort of additional UI element, which while possible, is one more step towards complexity.

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em3
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Re: Why are supply lanes visible?

#25 Post by em3 »

There is one alternative way to display starlanes conducting supplies for multiple empires - using the previous fleet supply method, that is -with moving dots. This way there could be altering dots in colours for each of supplying empires. This does not help with supply group display, though.
https://github.com/macmodrov
[...] for Man has earned his right to hold this planet against all comers, by virtue of occasionally producing someone totally batshit insane. - Randall Munroe, title text to xkcd #556

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