Attempted Colonization on top of Hidden Colonies

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Zireael
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Attempted Colonization on top of Hidden Colonies

#1 Post by Zireael »

EDIT: Design discussion split from a support request.
Dilvish wrote:
Geoff the Medio wrote:So, if the flag is not getting reset when colonization fails (should it?), then it would remain in effect on subsequent turns, causing a ship to colonize at the first opportunity to do so.
When the colonization fails, there is no longer an active order to colonize. Having the flag remain set on the ship does not automatically cause a new Colonize (or Invasion) order to be generated, and no new attempt will be made until the player actively orders it (which is not what the player expects they have to do since the ship, with flag still set, will show the UI indicator as if there is a pending colonization/invasion order). I speak from personal experience; I suppose I should be better about bug reporting *sigh* :oops:
Shouldn't the green flag be removed, then?

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Dilvish
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#2 Post by Dilvish »

Zireael wrote:Shouldn't the green flag be removed, then?
yes, the proper fix appears to be that upon a failed-to-launch colonization or invasion attempt the Server should reset the flag on the respective ships, & then the UI element won't display it either.
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Bigjoe5
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#3 Post by Bigjoe5 »

Dilvish wrote:
Zireael wrote:Shouldn't the green flag be removed, then?
yes, the proper fix appears to be that upon a failed-to-launch colonization or invasion attempt the Server should reset the flag on the respective ships, & then the UI element won't display it either.
Or, we could have the Colony ship continue to try to colonize the planet on subsequent turns so that the colonization will succeed as soon as it's possible for it to do so.
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eleazar
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#4 Post by eleazar »

If colonization/invasion is for some reason impossible, chances are it will be impossible the next turn.

I think the proper behavior is resetting the flag and giving the player a sitrep message that if failed. Ideally it would be an informative message, but even "Colonization Failed" would be an improvement.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#5 Post by Geoff the Medio »

In this particular case, the necessary fix is likely just to not allow the player to order colonization of a planet which is not visible enough for it to be seen that it is already populated. I vaguely recall changes to this rule some time in the last 6 months, possibly motivated by AI considerations and previous visibility issues?

There are other cases where a normally-allowed colonization order could fail, such as, I think, multiple empires trying to colonize a planet on the same turn. In that case, a sitrep message would be appropriate.

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Dilvish
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#6 Post by Dilvish »

Geoff the Medio wrote:I vaguely recall changes to this rule some time in the last 6 months, possibly motivated by AI considerations and previous visibility issues?
Yes, here's the original discussion of that. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6927 Some visibility checks in the Order system for invasion and colonization were rendered toothless, but still left generating error messages to the logs, because at the time we couldn't figure out how to more properly fix the problem. What with all the visibility changes since then, the underlying cause might well be fixed already. One of these days soonish I'll test re-enabling the bite to the visibility checking & see if things still work ok.

In the meantime, if you want to know if this is related to your problem, you can check for the respective one of the following warnings in the log. If there warning doesn't appear, then this visibility check is not the problem.

Code: Select all

InvadeOrder::ExecuteImpl given planet that empire reportedly has insufficient visibility of, but will be allowed to proceed pending investigation

Code: Select all

ColonizeOrder::ExecuteImpl given planet that empire reportedly has insufficient visibility of, but will be allowed to proceed pending investigation
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eleazar
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#7 Post by eleazar »

Geoff the Medio wrote:In this particular case, the necessary fix is likely just to not allow the player to order colonization of a planet which is not visible enough for it to be seen that it is already populated.
Since minor species and empires can have stealthed colonies of different sometimes very high levels, it isn't as if the player has be negligent when this occurs, and can learn a particular way to mend the problem.

For the UI to refuse to allow the player to colonize on apparently random planets is any less likely to confuse and annoy the player than the current behavior.

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Re: Colonization [5755]

#8 Post by Dilvish »

eleazar wrote:For the UI to refuse to allow the player to colonize on apparently random planets is any less likely to confuse and annoy the player than the current behavior.
Perhaps we should make a new type of sitrep -- for notifying the player that they attempted to colonize/invade a planet they didn't have sufficient visibility for. Once it happens once or twice, you learn to always check for scanlines....
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eleazar
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#9 Post by eleazar »

Ultimately, i'd like to get rid of the "Stealth is Invincible Planetary Armor" mechanic. It causes weird corner cases, and makes stealth into something that has little to do with secrecy, surreptitiousness, sneakiness, & slyness, but instead something blatant and functionally similar to shields -- only more effective.

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Dilvish
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#10 Post by Dilvish »

eleazar wrote:Ultimately, i'd like to get rid of the "Stealth is Invincible Planetary Armor" mechanic. It causes weird corner cases, and makes stealth into something that has little to do with secrecy, surreptitiousness, sneakiness, & slyness, but instead something blatant and functionally similar to shields -- only more effective.
I agree. Stealth should (and does, iirc) make the planet's Troop meter unreadable, so trying to invade would be a real gamble, but it does seem more appropriate that you be allowed to try. That would probably be a fairly easy change to make, as well. The only trickiness I see is possibly dealing with the Sitreps, depending on how they're generated, since the local client would think it's going in on an unopposed invasion, where actually it could be getting its but kicked.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#11 Post by Geoff the Medio »

eleazar wrote:For the UI to refuse to allow the player to colonize on apparently random planets is any less likely to confuse and annoy the player than the current behavior.
They wouldn't be random; they'd be the ones with scanlines indicating lack of visibility.
eleazar wrote:...get rid of the "Stealth is Invincible Planetary Armor" mechanic.
Colonization and troop invasions are distinct actions, so disabling one doesn't meant the other can't be permitted. However, for the UI to enable troop invasions of planets, the client would need to know there's a colony present on it. If the planet's stealthy, then presently the client won't know about the colony... Something about stealth could change, or there could be an "investigate surface" version of invasion for stealthy planets that, at least at present, would still consume a troop ship.

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em3
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#12 Post by em3 »

Also, the colonization of partly visible planets with alien colony could be made possible, but result in failure and sitrep:
"Colonizing planet XX failed. All contact with settlers was lost for unknown reasons."

Then again - what are other reasons for planet to be partly visible and what would be the result of actually having a colony on partly visible world?
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#13 Post by Bigjoe5 »

eleazar wrote:Ultimately, i'd like to get rid of the "Stealth is Invincible Planetary Armor" mechanic. It causes weird corner cases, and makes stealth into something that has little to do with secrecy, surreptitiousness, sneakiness, & slyness, but instead something blatant and functionally similar to shields -- only more effective.
The problem isn't that stealth is too powerful and not "sneaky" enough - it's that new players aren't adequately aware of it. There are ways to go capture a planet that's defended solely by stealth. For example, if the planet has stealth 40 and the player only has a detection of 30, he can bring in a ship with a Distortion Modulator to decrease its stealth to the level where he can detect it (at least in theory - I'm dubious that the WithinDistance 0 condition is working for this part, and Interstellar Lighthouse - needs testing).

Not being able to colonize a planet that you don't have adequate visibility of isn't a "weird corner case". It's an obvious consequence of a system that happens to be new for most players. The solution is to make those rules more clear to new players.

Also, what you're saying about stealth being "blatant" implies that encountering a stealthy planet is a sure indicator that someone is there. I intentionally made this not the case - there's no guarantee that a single stealthy planet, or even a cluster of stealthy planets actually belong to an empire. Also, stealthy ships are definitely not "blatant", whatever you might say about planets.
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#14 Post by yandonman »

Perhaps stealth within 20 detection doesn't hide the totality of planet, but hides a portion of the stats. Ex; I have 10 detection, planet has 20 stealth: I can see 15 troops, but in reality there are 30. (the exact percentage is random) I am able to invade, and can capture if I muster the 30+ troops.

This would also help the invisible-can't-colonize issue above.
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Zireael
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Re: Colonization [5755]

#15 Post by Zireael »

Dilvish wrote:
eleazar wrote:Ultimately, i'd like to get rid of the "Stealth is Invincible Planetary Armor" mechanic. It causes weird corner cases, and makes stealth into something that has little to do with secrecy, surreptitiousness, sneakiness, & slyness, but instead something blatant and functionally similar to shields -- only more effective.
I agree. Stealth should (and does, iirc) make the planet's Troop meter unreadable, so trying to invade would be a real gamble, but it does seem more appropriate that you be allowed to try. That would probably be a fairly easy change to make, as well. The only trickiness I see is possibly dealing with the Sitreps, depending on how they're generated, since the local client would think it's going in on an unopposed invasion, where actually it could be getting its but kicked.
This is a good idea.

And buildings shouldn't be seen if the planet is stealthed...

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