Ship Building HOI style

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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utilae
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#106 Post by utilae » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:26 am

Ranos wrote: Now, here is my idea of cross breeding utilea's and my ideas. There are different weapons types which have different characteristics. Here's a list:
Beam (Direct Fire) - A sustained beam of energy is fired at the target. Due to the requirements of sustaining the energy, damage is not high.
Bolt (Direct Fire) - A bolt of energy is fired at the target. Damage is high due to the concentrated nature of the energy.
Projectile (Direct Fire) - A solid projectile of some kind is fired at the target. Damage is moderate and does not disipate over distance. Ammunition is limited.
Subspace (Direct Fire Area Effect) - A weapon that travels through and/or effects subspace. These weapons can cause very high damage, but due to their unpredictable nature, can cause damage to the ship on which they are mounted.
Wave (Area Effect) - A weapon that creates a wave of energy that expands as it travels from the ship. It does moderate damage, but can cause damage to freindly ships if they get in the way. Some weapons are directional, some expand in all directions from the ship. (Think shockwave)
Missiles (Indirect Fire) - A large, self propelled projectile with homing capabilities. They are capable of doing moderate to high damage. They are limited by a limited ammount of fuel and ammo.
Torpedos (Indirect Fire) - A large ammount of energy of some kind contained within an energy field That does severe damage. Their range is not as great as Missiles due to the fact that the energy field dissipates over distance. There is no ammunition since these are charged within the ship. Reload time is longer than that of missiles.
Add to this if you can think of more.
Yes, a list of pretty unique weapon types. Some more ideas:
Area Effect Emission (a better name?) - basically there could be a number of effects. Eg. all friendly's in area gain +50 stealth or all enemies in area gain poison effect (they are hurt every now and then while poisened).

Distortion Tear/Blackhole - create a rip within space/time within visible sight. The tear slowly draws nearby ships torwards it. Nearby ships are damaged slowly. If nearby ships are close enough for long enough they are destroyed.

Ring Emitter - a ring of energy expands outward from the ship that created the effect. Damage is dealt to ships hit by the ring.

Energy Spores - they look like glowing energy balls. They fly at enemy ships and pass thru enemy ships doing damage. They then return to take another strike. They continue bombarding the enemy ship until the the spores die (they slowly die by themselves, but can also be damaged from pd weapons, flying through shields, nebula ???)

Laser Drones - these drones fly at an enemy ship at full speed and then attach to the enemy ship. Once attached, the drone deploys its laser cannon and starts shooting other enemy ships. The enemy ships must attack their own ship to get rid of the drone.

We should make a seperate thread for cool weapon ideas.
Ranos wrote: I'll use beams as an example. You start out with Lasers. You must research refinements to make lasers stronger. At some point, one of your refinements unlocks the key to a new beam technology: Phasors. When this occurs, lasers can no longer be refined. Researching these costs more than refinements due to the new nature of the energy being used. Once researched, phasors can be refined until the next new beam energy is discovered.
With this method you describe, lets say you reifne lasers, then can now refine phasors, so you reinfe phasors. Can you put max level lasers on your ships and put max level phasors on your ship?

Really though this is the same as having a laser, refining it up 5 levels, then the name changes and you can refine it up another 5 levels. This is ok though, because you would essentially end up with lasers and phasors (there differences between each other being enough to make them stand apart, ie what mods they may have).
Ranos wrote: Does that make sense? It allows for the wide variety of techs and the refinement of the tech types until the new tech of that type is discovered. This gives a reason why techs have to be refined, but also gives the feel of having new techs to discover. And maybe you have to have researched Beam and Bolt techs to aa certain level before you are able to research the basic Wave tech. Any suggestions on changes to be made utilae?
Seems good.

Maybe you should gain some mods outside of refinements, eg multi missile mod and missile size, travel range and missile engine mods.

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#107 Post by Ranos » Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:02 pm

utilae wrote:Area Effect Emission (a better name?) - basically there could be a number of effects. Eg. all friendly's in area gain +50 stealth or all enemies in area gain poison effect (they are hurt every now and then while poisened).

Distortion Tear/Blackhole - create a rip within space/time within visible sight. The tear slowly draws nearby ships torwards it. Nearby ships are damaged slowly. If nearby ships are close enough for long enough they are destroyed.

Ring Emitter - a ring of energy expands outward from the ship that created the effect. Damage is dealt to ships hit by the ring.

Energy Spores - they look like glowing energy balls. They fly at enemy ships and pass thru enemy ships doing damage. They then return to take another strike. They continue bombarding the enemy ship until the the spores die (they slowly die by themselves, but can also be damaged from pd weapons, flying through shields, nebula ???)

Laser Drones - these drones fly at an enemy ship at full speed and then attach to the enemy ship. Once attached, the drone deploys its laser cannon and starts shooting other enemy ships. The enemy ships must attack their own ship to get rid of the drone.
My idea of the Wave weapon is exactly like your Ring Emitter. The first version of the Wave weapon, I guess Wave Emitter sounds good, could only fire in a single direction but would expand as it traveled outward. Basically looking like a V with the tip at the location of the weapon. Either as part of refining or as a characteristic of more advanced wave emitters, expansion in all directions would be included, having the same effect as your Ring Emitter.

The Area Effect Emission sounds good, but unless we could come up with a scientific explanation, it would seem more like magic than a weapon. The poison part could possibly be a radioactive emission coming from the ship. The problem here is it should damage all ships, not just enemy. This one would have to take careful thinking and a good explanation of how it works before it could be used.

I like the other three ideas. The Laser Drones could be used with whatever Beam technology was available to the empire.
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#108 Post by Impaler » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:03 pm

I'll use beams as an example. You start out with Lasers. You must research refinements to make lasers stronger. At some point, one of your refinements unlocks the key to a new beam technology: Phasors. When this occurs, lasers can no longer be refined. Researching these costs more than refinements due to the new nature of the energy being used. Once researched, phasors can be refined until the next new beam energy is discovered.
Sorrry Ranos thats not consistent with the Tec Tree Plan, resrching a new weapon is an "Aplication" which would have as its pre-requisites a "Theory" of some sort. Refinments dont lead to anything else they are esentialy dead ends. Personaly I am oposed to your plan and favor refinment throughout the whole game, their would be no point ware you run out of refinments to a device (this assumes that each refinment level must be unlocked by other tec ofcorse). Take a look at Diablo 2 Skills as an example.

http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/skills/

Each can be "Refined" up to 20 levels which can keep most of them usefull to your character for a very long time but by the time your character is level 60 your almost always going to be forced to use a higher level skill because the low level ones have maxed out. If their were no upper limit you could keep using all the skills throughout the game.
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#109 Post by Ranos » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:12 pm

I've played Diablo 2 so I know how those things work. While they are similar, they are different. Before patch 1.10, the earlier skills were useless one the higher skills had been learned. That is basically what you are talking about having. What I am suggesting is using Synergies in a different way.

The new tech, phasors for example, would still be a new application, but instead of being unlocked just by a combination of discovered techs or a new understanding of that field of research, they would also be unlocked by your understanding of the way lasers work at an advanced level. In this way, you must refine to be able to get to the next best tech. In this way, refining is still a dead end, but there is a purpose to refine other than to improve the current weapon.

If early game weapons are useless at end game, then what is the point of refining them past the point that you get the next tech in line? If they are just as strong as other techs in the later game, then what is the point of having multiple techs? All you need to do is put modifiers on to the base techs to give them the abilities of the new techs.

This is why synergies were added to D2, to make the basic skills more useful and to give the player a reason to invest points into the lower skills.
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#110 Post by Impaler » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:28 pm

I am not sugjesting we use Synergies as were added in that Patch. I explicityly said it should NOT be like D2 inwhich you run into an arbitrary Cap at 20, imagine if all the skills in D2 whent up to 99 levels and were competative with every other skill!

Again your making a circular closed argument "new weapons are just the old weapons with modifiers on them so new weapons would have no purpose". This is an entirely unfounded assumption and I will once again refer to D2, none of the skills are identical even if they may outwardsly look very similar the Sorcoresse Ice Bolt slows enemies, Ice Blast freezes them and Glacial Spike Freezes everything in an area. These are the Unique features of the weapon and their would not be any kind of Modifier to give this ability to any other weapon.

I think most of your cofusion is over this kind of detail, what kind of options will be avalible as Modifiers and what kinds of things will be Unique to a weapon. Every weapon has something unique about it that nothing else can do. Modifers change the more basic features that all weapons have in common like rate of fire, range, accuracy, damage output ect ect. Theirs no way that you could give weapon A the unique abilites of weapon B simply by attaching a bunch of modifiers to it.
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#111 Post by utilae » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:34 pm

Ranos wrote: My idea of the Wave weapon is exactly like your Ring Emitter. The first version of the Wave weapon, I guess Wave Emitter sounds good, could only fire in a single direction but would expand as it traveled outward. Basically looking like a V with the tip at the location of the weapon. Either as part of refining or as a characteristic of more advanced wave emitters, expansion in all directions would be included, having the same effect as your Ring Emitter.
Yes, the two are pretty much the same. I was thinking maybe they could be put on the ship in 'quarters/facings/firing arcs'. So you could put a front facing wave weapon, that creates a quarter circle wave to expand out (front mainly). Or you could have a all directions facing, where the entire circle expands.
Ranos wrote: The Area Effect Emission sounds good, but unless we could come up with a scientific explanation, it would seem more like magic than a weapon. The poison part could possibly be a radioactive emission coming from the ship. The problem here is it should damage all ships, not just enemy. This one would have to take careful thinking and a good explanation of how it works before it could be used.
Basically in the case of stealth, it might be a stealth device (like stealth generator in C&C Tiberian Sun) where if a unit of yours was in range, it would be invisible while in range.

Maybe another variation of this effect would transmit a frequency that would shutdown all shields for all ships within range.

The poison variation of this weapon would not be poison (eg from a spider), but the poision effect. The enemy ship gets infected and is slowly damaged now and then until repaired. I guess to explain this, maybe nanites get into the target ships hull and start eating the armour, etc.
Ranos wrote: I like the other three ideas. The Laser Drones could be used with whatever Beam technology was available to the empire.
Yes. Maybe you need to research basic lasers and refine them a little, then research a tech called assault drones or something. Similar to how you would research fighters and maybe the smaller lasers to fit on a fighter.


We can think of more and more weapons later, but right now I think we should focus on a few things:
+Weapon Counters
[each weapon is effective against certain armour/shield types]
[each weapon is ineffective against certain armour/shield types]
+All weapons are usable throughout the game
[a weapon researched early in the game is useful in the lategame, may be necesary to refine to use it to its best potential]
+Weapons are refineable to a point
[weapons can be refined to a certain level, gaining certain mods and certain stat increases as it is refined]
+Newer weapons that are researched are very unique
[in style and stats eg laser, wave, missile, bomb, bolt]
+Simple repeats of a weapon (like fusion cannon after laser cannon should be refinements, that change the name of the weapon)
[A laser is refineable by 5 levels, then it unlocks fusion cannon, which is refineable by 5 levels, then it unlocks another weapon. Maybe laser and fusion cannon can both be used in ship design. Maybe after unlocking fusion cannon, you can still refine a laser by 2 or 3 more levels, this is much more costly then normal refinement]

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#112 Post by Ranos » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:40 pm

I never said you were suggesting using synergies. I was making that comparison with what I was suggesting.
Impaler wrote:Again your making a circular closed argument "new weapons are just the old weapons with modifiers on them so new weapons would have no purpose". This is an entirely unfounded assumption and I will once again refer to D2, none of the skills are identical even if they may outwardsly look very similar the Sorcoresse Ice Bolt slows enemies, Ice Blast freezes them and Glacial Spike Freezes everything in an area. These are the Unique features of the weapon and their would not be any kind of Modifier to give this ability to any other weapon.
You seem to have missed a vital point in my post. I said:
If they (early game weapons) are just as strong as other techs in the later game, then what is the point of having multiple techs?
That is my point. In D2, each new skill was more powerful than the last. It took a level 5 Firebolt to be as strong as a level 1 Fire Ball. It also didn't matter if you maxed Firebolt, it wouldn't compare to Fire Ball near the end of your campain and you would get killed if you attempted to use it as your primary skill throughout the game.

If we can refine techs so the early game weapons will be equally as strong as the late game weapons, then why have new weapons? You say for their different attributes. I say if they are the same strength, why bother with researching a new weapon to get the attribute, just make it a modifier of the old weapon.
Impaler wrote:I think most of your cofusion is over this kind of detail, what kind of options will be avalible as Modifiers and what kinds of things will be Unique to a weapon. Every weapon has something unique about it that nothing else can do. Modifers change the more basic features that all weapons have in common like rate of fire, range, accuracy, damage output ect ect. Theirs no way that you could give weapon A the unique abilites of weapon B simply by attaching a bunch of modifiers to it.
I am in no way confused as to the differences. I am saying that if the laser is usable in the late game and has comparable strength, due to refinements, as the late game weapon, why bother with new weapons?

If Lasers could never be as strong as late game weapons, then why bother allowing them to be refined past a certain point? That would be a waste of RP on a worthless weapon. Now do you understand what I am saying?

[EDIT]

You went and edited your post on me while I was responding.
Impaler wrote:I am not sugjesting we use Synergies as were added in that Patch. I explicityly said it should NOT be like D2 inwhich you run into an arbitrary Cap at 20, imagine if all the skills in D2 whent up to 99 levels and were competative with every other skill!
And I am saying if the early skills were as competative as the late skills, there would be no point in the late skills. Now in D2, each skill brought its own unique ability. Firebolt hits one target, Fire Ball hits multiple if they are standing close together. Ice Bolt only slows, Ice Blast freezes, Glacial Spike hits multiple nearby targets and Frozen Orb hits everything on the screen.

With FO, its different. There are modifiers that can be attached to weapons. Lets continue using D2 as an example since you seem to be focused on the comparison. Lets say that Firebolt could be just as strong as Fire Ball because there was no level cap. Instead of Fire Ball, there could be a Add splash damage to Firebolt. Do you understand now?

You also made your post during my writing utilae so I'll comment about your's now.
utilae wrote:We can think of more and more weapons later, but right now I think we should focus on a few things:
+Weapon Counters
[each weapon is effective against certain armour/shield types]
[each weapon is ineffective against certain armour/shield types]
+All weapons are usable throughout the game
[a weapon researched early in the game is useful in the lategame, may be necesary to refine to use it to its best potential]
+Weapons are refineable to a point
[weapons can be refined to a certain level, gaining certain mods and certain stat increases as it is refined]
+Newer weapons that are researched are very unique
[in style and stats eg laser, wave, missile, bomb, bolt]
+Simple repeats of a weapon (like fusion cannon after laser cannon should be refinements, that change the name of the weapon)
[A laser is refineable by 5 levels, then it unlocks fusion cannon, which is refineable by 5 levels, then it unlocks another weapon. Maybe laser and fusion cannon can both be used in ship design. Maybe after unlocking fusion cannon, you can still refine a laser by 2 or 3 more levels, this is much more costly then normal refinement]
1) Weapons counters. I am not in favor of this. MOO3 made a deflective capability of both armor and shields, IIRC, and that is how we should do it in FO, IMHO. The lower end weapons would not be capable of doing enough damage to get past the deflecting and therefore would be ineffective against the later shields.

Using Weapons counters as you describe them would make it ineffective for someone to be able to travel down one branch of research.

2) Weapons Usability
A) Weapons are usable throught the whole game. NO!! This, as I have said in this post and many before it, would make it pointless to have more than one weapon in each branch, or possibly more than one weapon period.
B) Weapons are refinable to a point. YES!! This is the better route.

3) Newer weapons are unique. Definately. I think that having a new weapon that is just like the old one just with a different color, range and damage is boring.

4) New Weapon Research
A) Weapons are a completely new tech that are researched independantly of refinements. No, this would make refinements mostly useless.
B) Weapons are refined forever and just change name when they get to a certain level. No, this makes for the same old weapon which is only solvable by #3 above. It also makes for, IMO, a boring research tree.
C) Weapons are refined X levels which unlocks the next weapon of that type. Yes, this gives refinements a usefull purpose solving the problem with A, allows for the uniqueness required by #3 and solves the boring research tree problme of B.

To combine the above, weapons are countered by your defenses ie. shields and point defense upgrading making the old weapons useless. Weapons are refineable to a point and have their own unique attributes. Weapons are researched by refining your existing tech which unlocks a new and better tech of the same type.
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#113 Post by utilae » Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:03 am

Ranos wrote: If we can refine techs so the early game weapons will be equally as strong as the late game weapons, then why have new weapons? You say for their different attributes. I say if they are the same strength, why bother with researching a new weapon to get the attribute, just make it a modifier of the old weapon.
I think the problem here is you are thinking of strength or damage of the weapon when you should be thinking of the use of the weapon.
eg
you have the laser type weapon - "straight line beam of energy"
you have the wave type weapon - "expanding ring of energy"

Now, are we gonna bother having another weapon that is of type "straight line beam of energy" and call it fusion cannon. Maybe fusion cannon does more damage then laser and is orange. Wouldn't it be better to get newer weapons equivelent to the fusion cannon (and other weapons of type "straight line beam of energy") through refinements.

Wouldn't it be better to be able to research newer weapon techs like wavem which is of type "expanding ring of energy" through mainstream research. Wouldn't it then be more logical to get newer weapons of type "expanding ring of energy" through refinements of the wave weapon.

I think it is more logical that way. Also I think that refinements as Impaler suggests should allow for a lot more refinements, maybe 20 levels. But there should be a max.
Ranos wrote: If Lasers could never be as strong as late game weapons, then why bother allowing them to be refined past a certain point?
Well if you let them be refined past a certain point, they would be as strong as late game weapons. Though I want to think of these weapons as being competitive. So it is not necesarily strength that matters, but whether the weapon is competitive late game.
Ranos wrote: That would be a waste of RP on a worthless weapon. Now do you understand what I am saying?
It wouldn't be a waste if the weapon was competitive in the late game through refinements, or even the use of the weapon.
Ranos wrote: With FO, its different. There are modifiers that can be attached to weapons. Lets continue using D2 as an example since you seem to be focused on the comparison. Lets say that Firebolt could be just as strong as Fire Ball because there was no level cap. Instead of Fire Ball, there could be a Add splash damage to Firebolt. Do you understand now?
Hmmmmmm, it would be cool and possible. Instead of researching lasers etc in the tech tree we just research weapon mods and templates/styles. You may research laser style. Then add mods like "splash damage", "continue through all targets in lasers path", etc. We could design our own weapons, as well as our own ships. This would be great.
Ranos wrote: 1) Weapons counters. I am not in favor of this. MOO3 made a deflective capability of both armor and shields, IIRC, and that is how we should do it in FO, IMHO. The lower end weapons would not be capable of doing enough damage to get past the deflecting and therefore would be ineffective against the later shields.
I believe this is one of the things that needs to be done to make all weapons usable up to the late game. And it would be alot more interesting. Though we shouldn't have too many counters, otherwise you would blow your mind trying to prepare for all types of counters.
Ranos wrote: Using Weapons counters as you describe them would make it ineffective for someone to be able to travel down one branch of research.
Very true, unless you got some free research bonus, eg you research counter A, and get some free research on counter B. A solution is needed.
Ranos wrote: 2) Weapons Usability
A) Weapons are usable throught the whole game. NO!! This, as I have said in this post and many before it, would make it pointless to have more than one weapon in each branch, or possibly more than one weapon period.
I see no problem with being able to use wave type weapons throughout the game and laser type weapons throughout the game. Each has there uses, eg wave can hit many targets, lasers are stronger against one target and in the long run when powerful enough can continue through all targets in its path (a nice little mod).
Ranos wrote: B) Weapons are refined forever and just change name when they get to a certain level. No, this makes for the same old weapon which is only solvable by #3 above. It also makes for, IMO, a boring research tree.
This is actually what happens when you continue down the research line on Moo2 getting laser->fusion cannon->nuetron->graviton, etc
Ranos wrote: C) Weapons are refined X levels which unlocks the next weapon of that type. Yes, this gives refinements a usefull purpose solving the problem with A, allows for the uniqueness required by #3 and solves the boring research tree problme of B.
Actually this is the same again
eg
This is actually what happens when you continue down the research line on Moo2 getting laser->fusion cannon->nuetron->graviton, etc

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#114 Post by Ranos » Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:46 am

Utilae, you are misunderstanding what both Impaler and I are saying. Impaler, at least from what I can tell, wants to use the old system with lasers being a base and and then phasors are just lasers with a differnet color, etc. This is what Impaler is suggesting:

Lasers are the base beam weapon tech. You refine lasers to make them gain in strength. After a while, Phasors become available, not as a result of the refining, as I had suggested, but as a result of expanding research. They would be a full part of Mainstream Research adn have nothing to do with the refining part, except that they could be refined. He wants to be able to use every single tech in the game at the end of the game.

Look, there are three different ways of doing weapons tech. I listed them in my last post:
New Weapon Research
A) Weapons are a completely new tech that are researched independantly of refinements.
B) Weapons are refined forever and just change name when they get to a certain level.
C) Weapons are refined X levels which unlocks the next weapon of that type.
I cut out some stuff in there just to have the list.

Here is a description of A:

You start the game with the Laser (Beam Weapon) and Mass Driver (Projectile Weapon) techs. You can refine these to make them stronger but only to a point. At some point, due to mainstream research, Fusion Cannon (Bolt Weapon) becomes available. You can, of course, refine this as well. Next, you discover Hard Beam (Beam). (I'm using MOO3 as an example to just make these clear, with a few techs added in) Hard Beam is basically the same as Laser, but it does more damage and has a greater range. Then you get Particle Cannon (Projectile). This is Mass Driver but does more damage and has greater range. This whole system continues on to the end of the game so you have the same basic weapons that only look different, do more damage and shoot farther.

Here is a description of B:

You start the game with the Laser (Beam Weapon) and Mass Driver (Projectile Weapon) techs. At some point, due to mainstream research, Fusion Cannon (Bolt Weapon) becomes available. All of these get refined and can be refined forever. At various intervals throughout the game, the name of these change, but they basically stay the same.

Here is a description of C:

You start the game with the Laser (Beam Weapon) and Mass Driver (Projectile Weapon) techs. You can refine Lasers to make them stronger and after refining them 5, 6 or 7 times, whatever the number decided on, Hard Beam (Beam) tech is uncovered. This is a new mainstream tech but is not as expensive to research as a brand new base tech. At some point, due to mainstream research, Fusion Cannon (Bolt Weapon) becomes available. This is a new base tech (Bolt Weapon being the base tech) and so it costs more to research. It is refined exactly the same as Lasers but leads to Hellfire Cannon after the set number of refinements.

Now, I hope all of these are clear as to how they function. Impaler wants to use research system A but make it so Lasers and Hard Beams will still be useable at the same time as Disintegration Beam (the most powerful Beam tech in the game).

With system C, you refine Lasers until you get Hard Beam and then Lasers become obsolete. Hard Beams are better in all ways. They do more damage, have a greater distance and have a built in 20% shield piercing. Lasers are no longer needed. There is no point in refining them further. It should not even be possible to refine them further.
utilae wrote:I believe this is one of the things that needs to be done to make all weapons usable up to the late game. And it would be alot more interesting. Though we shouldn't have too many counters, otherwise you would blow your mind trying to prepare for all types of counters.
We had been talking about weapon types before Impaler made his last two posts. Here is the list (Ring Emitter and Wave Emitter were the same thing):

Beam (Direct Fire)
Bolt (Direct Fire)
Projectile (Direct Fire)
Subspace (Direct Fire Area Effect)
Distortion Tear/Blackhole (Direct Fire Area Effect)
Area Effect Emission (Area Effect)
Wave Emitter(Area Effect)
Missiles (Indirect Fire)
Torpedos (Indirect Fire)
Energy Spores (Indirect Fire)
Laser Drones (Indirect Direct Fire)

All of these would be viable in the late game because they would be refined to the new techs using system C. Because of this, weapons counters are not needed.
utilae wrote:
Ranos wrote:Using Weapons counters as you describe them would make it ineffective for someone to be able to travel down one branch of research.
Very true, unless you got some free research bonus, eg you research counter A, and get some free research on counter B. A solution is needed.
I was referring to somebody, if they chose to, being able to only research the Bolt Weapons and using them instead of researching all techs. Maybe that won't be possible though.
utilae wrote:I see no problem with being able to use wave type weapons throughout the game and laser type weapons throughout the game. Each has there uses, eg wave can hit many targets, lasers are stronger against one target and in the long run when powerful enough can continue through all targets in its path (a nice little mod).
I think I misunderstood what you were talking about in the list that you had on your last post. I thought you were talking about the different options in the different areas.

All weapons types should be usable as I said above, but not all individual weapons.
utilae wrote:
Ranos wrote:B) Weapons are refined forever and just change name when they get to a certain level. No, this makes for the same old weapon which is only solvable by #3 above. It also makes for, IMO, a boring research tree.
This is actually what happens when you continue down the research line on Moo2 getting laser->fusion cannon->nuetron->graviton, etc
No, they arent the same. MOO2 is researching all mainstream techs and the more techs you research in each field, the more the techs that came before get refined. My way is your suggestion of having a single tech and refining it forever. Nothing but refinements.
utilae wrote:
Ranos wrote:C) Weapons are refined X levels which unlocks the next weapon of that type. Yes, this gives refinements a usefull purpose solving the problem with A, allows for the uniqueness required by #3 and solves the boring research tree problme of B.
Actually this is the same again
eg
This is actually what happens when you continue down the research line on Moo2 getting laser->fusion cannon->nuetron->graviton, etc
This is what I was talking about in my original merging of the way you wanted to do research and the way I wanted to do it. It doesn't matter how you do tech research, it will be almost the same in any way.

Maybe plotting the three research ways out would help everyone to understand the differences better.

1) Weapons are a completely new Mainstream tech that are researched independantly of refinements.

Mainstream Tech-----Refinement
Laser------------------>Laser Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
Hard Beam------------>Hard Beam Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
Phasor----------------->Phasor Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
Disruptor Beam------->Disruptor Beam Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
(Just a few examples form one type)

2) Weapons are refined forever and just change name when they get to a certain level.

Type----Base Name------Refinement
Beam---Laser------------>Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6 (Renamed to Hard Beam)-->Mk7-->Mk8-->Mk9-->Mk10-->Mk11 (Renamed to Phasor)-->Mk12-->Mk13-->Mk14-->Mk15-->Mk16(Renamed to Disruptor Beam)
Bolt-----Fusion Cannon--->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6 (Renamed to Hellfire Cannon)-->Mk7-->Mk8-->Mk9-->Mk10-->Mk11 (Renamed to Plasma Cannon)-->Mk12-->Mk13-->Mk14-->Mk15-->Mk16(Renamed to Megabolt Cannon)
(Just a couple of weapons types to get an example)

3) Weapons are refined X levels which unlocks the next weapon of that type.

Type----Base Name------Refinement------------------------New Tech----------------------------------------------New Tech
Beam---Laser------------>Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5----->Hard Beam-->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5------->Phasor (New Tech)-->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Disruptor Beam (New Tech)
Bolt-----Fusion Cannon--->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Hellfire Cannon-->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Plasma Cannon (New Tech)-->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Megabolt Cannon (New Tech)
(Just a couple of weapons types to get an example)

With 3, the base tech Laser is known at the start of the game. Refinements cost 5 (Just an example) but the New Tech Hard Beam costs 20. The New Tech requires you to refine your existing weapon but it is also based off of main stream research. This combines the elements of pure Mainstream research from #1 and pure Refinement research from #2.

Is that more clear now?
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#115 Post by utilae » Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:50 am

Ranos wrote: All of these would be viable in the late game because they would be refined to the new techs using system C. Because of this, weapons counters are not needed.
Maybe, though counters still exist
eg
Missile VS PD Beam weapons
Ranos wrote: All weapons types should be usable as I said above, but not all individual weapons.
Yes, that is what I am aiming for.
Ranos wrote: 1) Weapons are a completely new Mainstream tech that are researched independantly of refinements.

Mainstream Tech-----Refinement
Laser------------------>Laser Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
Hard Beam------------>Hard Beam Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
Phasor----------------->Phasor Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
Disruptor Beam------->Disruptor Beam Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
(Just a few examples form one type)
This is bad because lasers and hard beams are both basically the same, except for being a different color and having more damage and range.
Ranos wrote: 2) Weapons are refined forever and just change name when they get to a certain level.

Type----Base Name------Refinement
Beam---Laser------------>Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6 (Renamed to Hard Beam)-->Mk7-->Mk8-->Mk9-->Mk10-->Mk11 (Renamed to Phasor)-->Mk12-->Mk13-->Mk14-->Mk15-->Mk16(Renamed to Disruptor Beam)
Bolt-----Fusion Cannon--->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6 (Renamed to Hellfire Cannon)-->Mk7-->Mk8-->Mk9-->Mk10-->Mk11 (Renamed to Plasma Cannon)-->Mk12-->Mk13-->Mk14-->Mk15-->Mk16(Renamed to Megabolt Cannon)
(Just a couple of weapons types to get an example)
Essentially this starts off as mainstream research and continues through refinements. In this method new weapon types are unlocked in later research, but mainstream research and refinements are seperated.
Ranos wrote: 3) Weapons are refined X levels which unlocks the next weapon of that type.

Type----Base Name------Refinement------------------------New Tech----------------------------------------------New Tech
Beam---Laser------------>Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5----->Hard Beam-->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5------->Phasor (New Tech)-->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Disruptor Beam (New Tech)
Bolt-----Fusion Cannon--->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Hellfire Cannon-->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Plasma Cannon (New Tech)-->Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Megabolt Cannon (New Tech)
(Just a couple of weapons types to get an example)
Yes, this is the best method. It interlaces mainstream research and refinements. I assume that once you get to phasor, you cannot use both lasers and phasors. Although you would still need to have these techs, because older ships may have laser, to be refitted to phasor. And enemy spies may steal laser, even though you have phasor.

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#116 Post by Ranos » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:52 pm

utilae wrote:Maybe, though counters still exist
eg
Missile VS PD Beam weapons
Yes. PD weapons are counters to Missiles but then missiles become more evasive countering the PD weapons, which in turn are able to fire at faster rates and/or track better countering the missiles evasivenes. PD weapons are also counters to Fighters but fighters are piloted by humans and are able to better evade the PD so the PD gets better tracking and faster firing which counters the Fighter evasiveness but then Fighters get better shields and armor countering the PD. Stronger shields and armor are counters to stronger weapons, which become stronger to counter the shields.

That is what the advancement of tech is all about. Attempting to counter offenses or defenses by making them stronger.
utilae wrote:<snip>

This is bad because lasers and hard beams are both basically the same, except for being a different color and having more damage and range.

<snip>

Essentially this starts off as mainstream research and continues through refinements. In this method new weapon types are unlocked in later research, but mainstream research and refinements are seperated.

<snip>

Yes, this is the best method. It interlaces mainstream research and refinements. I assume that once you get to phasor, you cannot use both lasers and phasors. Although you would still need to have these techs, because older ships may have laser, to be refitted to phasor. And enemy spies may steal laser, even though you have phasor.
That was my point all along. the third method is better because it takes care of the problems with the first two methods. Yes, once youget phasor, lasers are obsolete and and are therefore, no longer available. That was my thinking anyway.
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#117 Post by Impaler » Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:09 pm

I think you two are getting each other confused in how you name things.

Also Ramos you have somewhat distorted my views in your previous posts. I will atempt to clarify.

First off this term "Mainstream Research" by which I think you mean "Other Aplications". Each "Thing" that can be put in a Ship is the restult of Aplied Reserch. Refinment improves the thing aka Mk1 >> Mk2 >> Mk3...

Ranos states
You start the game with the Laser (Beam Weapon) and Mass Driver (Projectile Weapon) techs. You can refine these to make them stronger but only to a point. At some point, due to mainstream research, Fusion Cannon (Bolt Weapon) becomes available. You can, of course, refine this as well. Next, you discover Hard Beam (Beam). (I'm using MOO3 as an example to just make these clear, with a few techs added in) Hard Beam is basically the same as Laser, but it does more damage and has a greater range. Then you get Particle Cannon (Projectile). This is Mass Driver but does more damage and has greater range. This whole system continues on to the end of the game so you have the same basic weapons that only look different, do more damage and shoot farther.

-And-

Impaler wants to use research system A but make it so Lasers and Hard Beams will still be useable at the same time as Disintegration Beam (the most powerful Beam tech in the game).
Though its true I want every device to be refinable and usable for the whole game its not true that I want "Hard Beam = Orange Laser with more damage". Thats the last thing I am looking for. Hard Beam should have something to differentiate it from Laser even if its a simple as being Shorter in Range/Higher in damage kind of stuff. Cool abilities are cool and desirable but not strictly nessary.

Also as an example of what I mean when I say "competative". Lets say I start with Lasers, about the same time I have hit Level 5 Laser I am making the Initial discover of Hard Beam. The Level 5 Laser should be competative with the Level 1 Hard Beam because their at the same hight in the tec tree. As I said Hard Beams could be High damage close Range weapons compared with Lasers. Later in the game I have Laser at level 10 and Hard beam at Level 5. The underlying nature of each weapon would be keept intact the Hard Beam is still Higher damage Shorter Range even though it may by now be longer range then Level 5 Laser. The Laser at a comperable level of Research will always be longer range and less damage then the Hard Beam. And ofcorse if their are unique abilites it makes it even easier to see how nothing ever becomes obsolete.


As for Research Paths I prefer the Number 1 aproatch
Mainstream Tech-----Refinement
Laser------------------>Laser Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
Hard Beam------------>Hard Beam Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
Phasor----------------->Phasor Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
Disruptor Beam------->Disruptor Beam Mk2-->Mk3-->Mk4-->Mk5-->Mk6
(Just a few examples form one type)
The 2nd aproatch seem to involve name changes without a change in function which is pointless and confusing to the player in my opinion. If on the otherhand their were functional differences between these Name changes then their could be some purpose to it. The Third aproatch seems to have a goal of mixing Refinment and Aplication in some weird way. I have a much smother proposal for doing that.

Simply Cap the Refinment level of a Device on the "Overall" level of the Field. Only new Aplications raise your field level, refinments dont. Once you have maxed out your refinments on a Device you have to go out and research other Aplications to get your overall level up. Another similar method would be to expedentialy incresse the cost of Refinment when your over your level and decressing it when your below.
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#118 Post by Ranos » Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:04 pm

Impaler wrote:Though its true I want every device to be refinable and usable for the whole game its not true that I want "Hard Beam = Orange Laser with more damage". Thats the last thing I am looking for. Hard Beam should have something to differentiate it from Laser even if its a simple as being Shorter in Range/Higher in damage kind of stuff. Cool abilities are cool and desirable but not strictly nessary.
I didn't say they would be the same, that's utilae's phrasing. Using the first approach, each weapon would be different and have its own attributes. I don't want all of the weapons to be the same. I also don't want all weapons to be usable in the late game. That makes having new weapons pointless. If all weapons could still be usable in the late game, then the only purpose to having new weapons is their speacial characteristics. If that is the only difference, then just make one weapon of each kind and include mods which you get at certain refinement levels that would give the characteristics of the new weapon.

You shouldn't be able to decide which weapon characteristic you like best and just research and refine so you can always use that one weapon. New weapons should be bigger and better than the old ones. Not the same exact thing with a different attribute.
Impaler wrote:Also as an example of what I mean when I say "competative". Lets say I start with Lasers, about the same time I have hit Level 5 Laser I am making the Initial discover of Hard Beam. The Level 5 Laser should be competative with the Level 1 Hard Beam because their at the same hight in the tec tree. As I said Hard Beams could be High damage close Range weapons compared with Lasers. Later in the game I have Laser at level 10 and Hard beam at Level 5. The underlying nature of each weapon would be keept intact the Hard Beam is still Higher damage Shorter Range even though it may by now be longer range then Level 5 Laser. The Laser at a comperable level of Research will always be longer range and less damage then the Hard Beam. And ofcorse if their are unique abilites it makes it even easier to see how nothing ever becomes obsolete.
To make this work, level 5 lasers would also have to be ther exact same size as level 1 Hard Beam. What's the point then? Insteads of puting Hard Beam there, put a mod that makes lasers do what hard beam does.
Impaler wrote:First off this term "Mainstream Research" by which I think you mean "Other Aplications". Each "Thing" that can be put in a Ship is the restult of Aplied Reserch. Refinment improves the thing aka Mk1 >> Mk2 >> Mk3...

<snip>

The Third aproatch seems to have a goal of mixing Refinment and Aplication in some weird way. I have a much smother proposal for doing that.
By "Mainstream Research" I mean new weapons, new technologies, etc. There is nothing wierd about the third approach. You still have to research theoretical techs or other techs that lead to getting Hard Beam, but you also have to refine the Laser which is a requirement to get the tech.

As for the research options, I would accept either 1 or 3. With 1, refinements would be an option, but there would be a set cap that cannot be changed by researching new techs. Being able to refine things forever is, IMO, just plain stupid. It's nonsense. If this was something that could be done, I would lose my "Immersion" in the game. I know for me, as well as probably other people, there must be some realistic things in a game for me to be immersed in it. Refining a technology forever is so unrealistic, that it would break the spell of the game. It would remind me that I could do it just so you could use any weapon you wanted to in the game. This is not a realism arguement, it is an immersion arguement: viewtopic.php?t=638

The difference between 1 and 3 is with 1, you have the option to refine but you don't have to. With 3, refining the weapon gives you a better understanding of how that type weapon works, which helps you to understand how to make a new weapon work.

I also don't want to see hundreds of tech buttons due to the refinements. When a tech is in the tree and you have researched it, it would then have the phrase "Refine to MkX" on it. You click on the same tech button to choose to refine the weapon.
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#119 Post by Impaler » Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:51 pm

I also don't want all weapons to be usable in the late game. That makes having new weapons pointless. If all weapons could still be usable in the late game, then the only purpose to having new weapons is their speacial characteristics.
Yes thats the point, you get new Options which will likly be very good at beating up on someone who has only lower level Tecnologies.
You shouldn't be able to decide which weapon characteristic you like best and just research and refine so you can always use that one weapon.
The only think that should prevent you from doing this is that your foolishly putting all your Eggs in one Basket, when your oponent gets the Shields that nulify your favorite beam weapon your in for a world of hurt.
If that is the only difference, then just make one weapon of each kind and include mods which you get at certain refinement levels that would give the characteristics of the new weapon.
That could work but the Modifier shouldnt be given away with Refinment, it should be a new Aplication that gives you the "Hard" Modifier to put on your Laser to make "Hard Lasers".

If you notice the Ship design thread I was thinking it might be possible to go with a semi-specific stack say "Beam Weapon" as the equivilent of Laser. Then the player drops one or more Modifiers onto it to Modify it and perhaps give it unique abilites.
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#120 Post by Ranos » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:59 pm

Impaler wrote:
I also don't want all weapons to be usable in the late game. That makes having new weapons pointless. If all weapons could still be usable in the late game, then the only purpose to having new weapons is their speacial characteristics.
Yes thats the point, you get new Options which will likly be very good at beating up on someone who has only lower level Tecnologies.
The point of all weapons being able to be usable in the late game is the special characteristics? Why? Why bother with strategic and tactical space combat at all? Why not just let the computer figure it all out? If you can use any weapon whenever you want, then you don't have to shift your battle strategy as the weapons change. This erases the challenge of ship designing and space combat.
Impaler wrote:
You shouldn't be able to decide which weapon characteristic you like best and just research and refine so you can always use that one weapon.
The only think that should prevent you from doing this is that your foolishly putting all your Eggs in one Basket, when your oponent gets the Shields that nulify your favorite beam weapon your in for a world of hurt.
No. None of this developing shields that counter specific weapons. The only shielding counter to weapons should be that the weapon becomes old and obsolete and can no longer do enough damage to penetrate the newer shields. Having shields that counter a specific weapon or weapon type is pointless. There are still a dozen other weapon types out there and dozens of individual weapons that fall under those categories. Countering one is pointless. Shields should get stronger and be able to take more damage, that is their counter to all weapons.
Impaler wrote:
If that is the only difference, then just make one weapon of each kind and include mods which you get at certain refinement levels that would give the characteristics of the new weapon.
That could work but the Modifier shouldnt be given away with Refinment, it should be a new Aplication that gives you the "Hard" Modifier to put on your Laser to make "Hard Lasers".
No that wouldn't work. This makes weapons research utterly boring. Do you ignore the things that you don't like in posts? I have stated that fact in at least two other of my posts. I don't want to have one weapon with a hundred modifiers. That makes the weapons tech dull and boring and again, would take all challenge out of strategic and tactical combat.
Impaler wrote:If you notice the Ship design thread I was thinking it might be possible to go with a semi-specific stack say "Beam Weapon" as the equivilent of Laser. Then the player drops one or more Modifiers onto it to Modify it and perhaps give it unique abilites.
If you notice in the Ship design thread, I don't like your idea of ship designing. It is far too limiting and doesn't allow you to easily shift your strategy if it isn't working.

You also seem to have ignored the majority of my post. Go back and read it again. All weapons would be the same. BORING!! There would no longer be any flavor in the weapons tech area and the immersion, at least for me, would disappear and I would not have any interest in the game. The point of weapons becoming useless is to have to figure out the best way to use new weapons. It seems that in past games, you didn't like losing the characteristics of certain weapons and now you want to be able to have those characteristics at your fingertips whenever you want. I don't.

This would also mean endless refining which would take away from the actual mainstream research. My suggestion of combining mainstream research and refining gives you the best of both worlds. It means that the RP you spent on refining isn't wasted, as it would feel by just having all new techs be separate. It also wouldn't alow for the dullness of endlessly refining the same exact weapon all game long.
Last edited by Ranos on Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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