Ship Building HOI style

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Ranos
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#91 Post by Ranos »

utilae wrote:They need to be equally viable to a player, if players realise that normal research of weapons is way better than refinements could ever be, then no one will ever go for refinements. Both mainstream research and refonments need to be balanced enough to lure players into research and refinements at an equal frequency. So we need to think of some advantages and disadvantages for both mainstream researched weapons and refined weapons, that make them equally useful and usable in the game.
NO they don't. I keep saying and you keep ignoring the fact that if refining a weapon is equal to researching a new weapon, then what is the point of researching a new weapon? Refinements are merely meant to make an existing weapon more powerful so that it is more usable in later combat. If I build a ship at the start of the game, it will be more cost effective to research a few refinements on the ship and to refit the ship itself than it will be to overhaul the ship with the next weapon in the tech tree. This is the point of refining, not making the next weapon pointless because you can just refine the laser.

If researching a refinement is cheap, people will do it even if it won't matter by the time they reach the new weapon. If they are equal, no one will research the new weapon. See my point?
utilae wrote:Er, such situations may make or break a game. Plus there have been many times in Moo2 that I have had to wait too long for even the cheapest ships, so unless I was an industry powerhouse, I wouldn't be able to build a doomstar full of 50 plasma cannons, lol.
Yes they may, but the 5 cost you save from using laser Mk1 and Laser Mk6 is not going to be that important. If you weren't able to build the big ships by the time you had doomstars available, then you need to rethink your strategy. There were plenty of industrial upgrades available to make your industrial capacity much stronger. Build those and you can build the big ships.

To add to that, FO's industrial system will not work like MOO2's. Empire based industry instead of planetary based. All you have to do is keep your industrial planets built up with industry and you'll be fine.
utilae wrote:Refinements is taking an applied tech, like lasers and advancing it in levels, making it better, etc. And when a laser is refined, it is like reserearching an entirely new weapon, so it would not automatically upgrade your ships lasers to refined lasers. You would have to refit for that.
That depends on how the upgrading is done. There are three ways.

1) Refits happen automatically.
2) The player must click on an "Refit" button.
3) The player must order there ships back to the shipyards to be refitted.

I prefer the second one myself since it doesn't require a lot of microing like 3 would but doesn't force you to spend $$ to upgrade when you don't want to like 1 would.
noelte wrote:
utilae wrote:
Ranos wrote:If researching refinements "might be as effective" or "should be equal to" researching a new weapon, ...


They need to be equally viable to a player, ...
Note, there is a difference between refinements and new techs. refinements should only be done a few steps, say from lvl 1 to lvl 5. New weapons techs would lead to more powerful weapons. I guess ref is cheaper than research new once, but at the drawback, that you can not refine for ever.
I hope you don't think I am advocating that refinements be equal to the new tech because you cut my post off a little short there. This is what I said:

[quote="Ranos]If researching refinements "might be as effective" or "should be equal to" researching a new weapon, then what's the point? Why not just put lasers in the game, save on loads of techs and just refine the hell out of the lasers? If a Laser Mk10 does 20 damage, then the next weapon in line should do 40 for less than double the space.[/quote]

See the first part of this post for any clarification on the above quote.

@Daveybaby

Okay, I see what you were saying. I was in no way intending that big stronger should be the only way to go. I guess I got bogged down in my own way of playing to try to make my point about the whole laser level should be selectable when making a ship thing.
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#92 Post by Impaler »

I would like to point out that I see the inherent tacticaly variety of weapons as the major reason to upgrade. Ion Cannons might be far more damageing but shorter in range, Nutrion Cannons penetrate armor but do light damage ect. By reserching more advanced weapons you mainly getting more variety . Think of the Game StarCraft the zergling is like a Laser, plain simple and reliable, nothing ever makes it completly obsolete so long as you spend the time and money to give it the nessary upgrades. More advanced weapons are like the expensive late game units like Guardians, Defilers and Ultralisks. These often work best in synergy with your early game stuff. This is the Philosoply we should follow.
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utilae
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#93 Post by utilae »

Ranos wrote: NO they don't. I keep saying and you keep ignoring the fact that if refining a weapon is equal to researching a new weapon, then what is the point of researching a new weapon?
I am not saying they are absolutely equal, I am saying aproximately equal. I am floating the idea of refinments as an alternative research path that is not the better path, nor is it the worse path, whether it is equal, better or worse depends on what advantages refinements have over mainstream research and what advantages mainstream research has over refinements.
Ranos wrote: If I build a ship at the start of the game, it will be more cost effective to research a few refinements on the ship and to refit the ship itself than it will be to overhaul the ship with the next weapon in the tech tree. This is the point of refining, not making the next weapon pointless because you can just refine the laser.
I am not saying that researching the next weapon will be pointless. I am saying that refinements may be an alternative. So here's an idea (its rushed, but shows of two possible paths that mainstream research and refinements may take, each path aproximately equal)
Mainstream research
+unlock new theory & applied techs
+newer weapons are far more powerful and more different

Refinements
+improve existing applied techs
+improve existing weapons, making them more powerful (each upgrade level is many times less than researching a new weapon entirely)
+it is cheaper and quicker to research refinements
+you get weapon modifiers
-weapons can only be refined to a maximum level
-mid to late game it costs more to refine
Ranos wrote: If researching a refinement is cheap, people will do it even if it won't matter by the time they reach the new weapon. If they are equal, no one will research the new weapon. See my point?
Yes, they will research the new weapon, because they will be equal paths, which means the player is equally likely to take mainstream research, refinements or both. That is the kind of balance I want ot see. It would be far more interesting if refinements were an *alternative* in research, ie another path. One race may be good at researching better and newer weapons while another may be good at refining what they have. If your race specualises in refinements then you as a player are probably more likely to refine more often.
Ranos wrote: That depends on how the upgrading is done. There are three ways.

1) Refits happen automatically.
2) The player must click on an "Refit" button.
3) The player must order there ships back to the shipyards to be refitted.

I prefer the second one myself since it doesn't require a lot of microing like 3 would but doesn't force you to spend $$ to upgrade when you don't want to like 1 would.
All the second one says is press the refit button. I have another option:
4) Goto a refit screen. Choose the ships to refit. All ships stay where they are and cannot be used until refited. Freighters bring all the parts to the ships (to the location the ships are). So the ships don't go anyway. They just are unusable for a few turns. The wait to refit is only the time it takes to refit the ship (there is no time included for the freighters travel).


Impaler wrote: I would like to point out that I see the inherent tacticaly variety of weapons as the major reason to upgrade. Ion Cannons might be far more damageing but shorter in range, Nutrion Cannons penetrate armor but do light damage ect. By reserching more advanced weapons you mainly getting more variety . Think of the Game StarCraft the zergling is like a Laser, plain simple and reliable, nothing ever makes it completly obsolete so long as you spend the time and money to give it the nessary upgrades. More advanced weapons are like the expensive late game units like Guardians, Defilers and Ultralisks. These often work best in synergy with your early game stuff. This is the Philosoply we should follow.
Well thats a good analogy. Yes, each new weapon should be *different*. Refinements of course unlock the weapon modifiers, like shield piercing, so essentially refinements make the weapons different too, because a laser may have shield piercing, but a plasma cannon may not.

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#94 Post by Daveybaby »

Where, IMO, Ranos is going wrong is that he seems to me to be seeing each new weapon type as an overall improvement on the last, instead of something which adds new tactical options.

This is why refinements of existing weapons are good. Beam weapon #2 might have totally different characteristics (accuracy, shield pen, power/weight ratio, range dissipation etc) over weapon #1. Thus weapon #1 might still be a VERY USEFUL WEAPON. Thus you might want to improve weapon #1 so that it remains useful further into the game instead of abandoning each weapon as soon as a new one is researched, which is INCREDIBLY BORING.

If that didnt make any sense. Its because its friday night and i've just got in.
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#95 Post by Ranos »

Impaler wrote:I would like to point out that I see the inherent tacticaly variety of weapons as the major reason to upgrade. Ion Cannons might be far more damageing but shorter in range, Nutrion Cannons penetrate armor but do light damage ect. By reserching more advanced weapons you mainly getting more variety . Think of the Game StarCraft the zergling is like a Laser, plain simple and reliable, nothing ever makes it completly obsolete so long as you spend the time and money to give it the nessary upgrades. More advanced weapons are like the expensive late game units like Guardians, Defilers and Ultralisks. These often work best in synergy with your early game stuff. This is the Philosoply we should follow.
The difference here is that in an RTS like Starcraft or Warcraft, You are only allowed a certain number of units and the earlier units get built faster than the late units. While this would still be basically true with weapons in FO, they are much different. A laser that you get at the start of the game would be useless against armor that you get near the end of the tech tree. The armor would just be too strong and take too many hits to be destroyed. Would I like to see more variety in weapons than have been in other games? Yes, but I don't think that every weapon in the game should still be usable at the end of the game.
utilae wrote:I am not saying they are absolutely equal, I am saying aproximately equal. I am floating ....

<snip>

....what they have. If your race specualises in refinements then you as a player are probably more likely to refine more often.
I didn't want to quote everything you said just wanted to make the point that I was resonding to all of it.

I think we are both saying basically the same thing here, just in two different ways. The word equal means "the same or identical". The word altenative means "instead of". If refinements and new techs were "equal" that would mean you could do either one with the same result. If refinements were an "alternative" to new techs, that would mean thesame thing.

The problem is, you can't. You can use refinements to improve the tech that you currently have, but you would still need to eventually research the new tech. I would research the refinements so that my weapons or armor or shields or whatever else will be refinable would be more powerful until I was able to research the new tech.

So instead of saying "equal" or "alternative" when talking about refinements, juts say what I just said, because you seem to want thesame exact thing.
utilae wrote:4) Goto a refit screen. Choose the ships to refit. All ships stay where they are and cannot be used until refited. Freighters bring all the parts to the ships (to the location the ships are). So the ships don't go anyway. They just are unusable for a few turns. The wait to refit is only the time it takes to refit the ship (there is no time included for the freighters travel).
That is an excellent idea. I do think that there should be an option to refit all ships that can be refitted. For overhauls though, I would like to see ships have to go back to the shipyards. Just MHO.
Daveybaby wrote:Where, IMO, Ranos is going wrong is that he seems to me to be seeing each new weapon type as an overall improvement on the last, instead of something which adds new tactical options.
I am not seeing every single weapon as an upgrade of the last and I do think that there should be weapons that have characteristics that are all their own, but I think that each new weapon in each area should be an improvement on the last. If you don't know what I mean then here's a little info on what I would like to see:

Weapon tech categories are: Direct Fire Beam, Direct Fire Bolt, Direct Fire Projectile, Indirect Fire (this could be split into two categories like MOO2 was with missiles and torpedos the latter of which were pure energy held together by an energy shield of some kind but with homing capabilities. Plasma torpedos are an example of that), Fighter (this could be split also if Fighters can mount all of the same weapons as capital ships).

DF Beam: Lasers, Phasors, and Graviton Beam would fall under this category.
DF Bolt: Fusion Cannon, Plasma Cannon and Ion Cannon would fall under this category.
DF Projectile: Mass Projector and Particle Cannon would fall under th9is category.

Obviously these are not all of the weapons that will be in the game, just part of them. For now, lets say that these are in the order that they would be in in the game.

Phasors should be stronger than lasers but maybe they are able to get 20% of their damage through the shields every hit. So basically they have a built in 20% shield pircing ability. Graviton Beam would be stronger than Phasors but would slow down the ship or cause it to tilt to one side or some other gravitational effect.

Plamsa Cannon would be stronge than Fusion Cannon but would do only 30% damage to the armor and the rest would be internal damage. Ion Cannon would be stronger than Plasma Cannon but would not damage the armor or internals at all, they would mess with the internals causing the ship to be disabled.

Maybe Mass Projector is only 50% effective against shields while Particle Cannon is 100% against shields. Projectile weapons like these coule do more damage than energy weapons but have a limited ammount of ammunition.

If both Missiles and Torpedos are used, then Missiles are good because they do lots of damage but you have a limited ammount on your ships. Torpedos would do less damage than missiles but would have an unlimited ammount. Of course the recharge time would be equal to a missile reload time meaning they wouldn't be nearly as good as normal enregy weapons.

As you can see, I do want diversity, but if the weapons don't get stronger as the game progresses, then neither can armor, shields or internals.
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utilae
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#96 Post by utilae »

Ranos wrote: A laser that you get at the start of the game would be useless against armor that you get near the end of the tech tree. The armor would just be too strong and take too many hits to be destroyed. Would I like to see more variety in weapons than have been in other games? Yes, but I don't think that every weapon in the game should still be usable at the end of the game.
Why shouldn't a weapon you have gotten at the begining of the game be usable at the end of the game. This leads to an interesting idea.

Past Moo games have always given the mindset that newer techs are *always* better. Sure, in most case newer weapons should be stronger, but maybe newer techs could just be different enough to be worth being higher in the tech tree. For example a weapon that can attack 20 ships at once. It isn't very good at a single ship, but is much better against a group of ships (Moo2, Moo3 lacked area effect weapons).
Ranos wrote: I think we are both saying basically the same thing here, just in two different ways. The word equal means "the same or identical". The word altenative means "instead of". If refinements and new techs were "equal" that would mean you could do either one with the same result. If refinements were an "alternative" to new techs, that would mean thesame thing.
The key word that I was using was "path" of research. If both paths are equal, then they are alternatives, are different, but are balanced.
Ranos wrote: The problem is, you can't. You can use refinements to improve the tech that you currently have, but you would still need to eventually research the new tech. I would research the refinements so that my weapons or armor or shields or whatever else will be refinable would be more powerful until I was able to research the new tech.
Maybe, you may do that. But the *ability* to refine forever should be there. We just have to figure out how to make it work. Because when we do make it work, and it is balanced and perfect, it will be very satisfying, plus it will be fun and add some spice.
Ranos wrote:
utilae wrote:4) Goto a refit screen. Choose the ships to refit. All ships stay where they are and cannot be used until refited. Freighters bring all the parts to the ships (to the location the ships are). So the ships don't go anyway. They just are unusable for a few turns. The wait to refit is only the time it takes to refit the ship (there is no time included for the freighters travel).
That is an excellent idea. I do think that there should be an option to refit all ships that can be refitted. For overhauls though, I would like to see ships have to go back to the shipyards. Just MHO.
Thanks.
Ranos wrote: I am not seeing every single weapon as an upgrade of the last and I do think that there should be weapons that have characteristics that are all their own, but I think that each new weapon in each area should be an improvement on the last.
I would like it though, if a weapon higher in the tech tree was not necesarily better, ie the weapon would not always do more damage then the last. Maybe certain stats would be better or the style of the weapon (eg area effect to hit 20 ships) would make the weapon more valuable. Overall the weapon would be better, but I think that a weapon researched in the begining of the game should still be usable in the late game, but maybe it is only possible through refinements.
Ranos wrote: As you can see, I do want diversity, but if the weapons don't get stronger as the game progresses, then neither can armor, shields or internals.
This is the main problem, with my idea: "that higher tech weapons aren't necesarily more powerful, though may be different enough to be up that high in the tree".


Here's an idea. We have laser. We have fusion cannon. Now fusion cannon is more powerful than laser (based on Moo2). In fact fusion cannon is better in everyway. Now if fusion cannon is equivelent to a level 4 refined laser, then why have fusion cannon. Because really when you get to it, you think, "oh its an orange laser, seen it before". Sure there are little changes, but nothing that can't be gained through refining a laser.

My point is if each weapon tech was totally unique it would be very cool. For example, what if laser was the only direct fire-straight line-beam weapon in the game. You want graviton cannon, just reifine laser.

Then you could have plasma cannon, but we won't make it similar to a laser (ie straight line). No, we will make it similar, but really different. Let's make it so that plasma cannon is a straight line-direct fire-beam weapon. Plus when it hits the target a splash blast hits a radius of two other ships. Now this would be new (not these are all examples).

We should be original enough to think of as many *completely different* style/stat based weapons as there were in Moo2. Though now since there is only one missile, one directfirebeamweapon, one bomb, refinement will make the equivelents ot graviton beam, phasor, etc etc.

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#97 Post by Ranos »

utilae wrote:Why shouldn't a weapon you have gotten at the begining of the game be usable at the end of the game. This leads to an interesting idea.
Have you even read what I have said in at least two if not three posts? BECAUSE IT WOULD MAKE RESEARCHING NEW TECHS UNIMPORTANT. ALL YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO WOULD BE TO REFINE FOREVER. Sorry for yelling but I want you to hear. Now I know you have said because other weapons would have different attributes to them, but all we would need would be a bunch of different mods for the laser, and there would be no point in having another weapon.
utilae wrote:The key word that I was using was "path" of research. If both paths are equal, then they are alternatives, are different, but are balanced.
It doesn't matter what words you use, they should not be equal. Refining the laser forever and researching the next 5 weapons in the Beam area should not be the same. Refining should be to improve the stregnth of the weapon until the next weapon becomes available. Plain and simple.
utilae wrote:Maybe, you may do that. But the *ability* to refine forever should be there. We just have to figure out how to make it work. Because when we do make it work, and it is balanced and perfect, it will be very satisfying, plus it will be fun and add some spice.
No it shouldn't. I will say it again. Refining forver makes other weapons pointless. The fun for me is seeing that new weapon showing up in my tech area and looking forward to the turn I can finally mount it on my ships. I see no fun in continuosly clicking the refine button and knowing that in two turns when this refinement is done, I can click it again to refine to the next level.
utilae wrote:
Ranos wrote:
utilae wrote:4) Goto a refit screen. Choose the ships to refit. All ships stay where they are and cannot be used until refited. Freighters bring all the parts to the ships (to the location the ships are). So the ships don't go anyway. They just are unusable for a few turns. The wait to refit is only the time it takes to refit the ship (there is no time included for the freighters travel).
That is an excellent idea. I do think that there should be an option to refit all ships that can be refitted. For overhauls though, I would like to see ships have to go back to the shipyards. Just MHO.
Thanks.
You're welcome.
utilae wrote:I would like it though, if a weapon higher in the tech tree was not necesarily better, ie the weapon would not always do more damage then the last. Maybe certain stats would be better or the style of the weapon (eg area effect to hit 20 ships) would make the weapon more valuable. Overall the weapon would be better, but I think that a weapon researched in the begining of the game should still be usable in the late game, but maybe it is only possible through refinements.
Again, this makes it pointless to have any other weapons. To get the area effect, all you do is make this a mod of the Laser.
utilae wrote:Here's an idea. We have laser. We have fusion cannon. Now fusion cannon is more powerful than laser (based on Moo2). In fact fusion cannon is better in everyway. Now if fusion cannon is equivelent to a level 4 refined laser, then why have fusion cannon. Because really when you get to it, you think, "oh its an orange laser, seen it before". Sure there are little changes, but nothing that can't be gained through refining a laser.
You are making my point for me. Why bother.
utilae wrote:My point is if each weapon tech was totally unique it would be very cool. For example, what if laser was the only direct fire-straight line-beam weapon in the game. You want graviton cannon, just reifine laser.

Then you could have plasma cannon, but we won't make it similar to a laser (ie straight line). No, we will make it similar, but really different. Let's make it so that plasma cannon is a straight line-direct fire-beam weapon. Plus when it hits the target a splash blast hits a radius of two other ships. Now this would be new (not these are all examples).
First you say the laser is a "straight line" weapon. Then you say the plasma cannon won't be a straight line weapon. Then you say the plasma cannon will be a "line-direct fire-beam weapon" but will splash when it hits the target.

First, make up your mind, straight line or not. Second, why not just make the splash a mod of the laser. Then you wouldn't even have to research the plasma cannon.
utilae wrote:We should be original enough to think of as many *completely different* style/stat based weapons as there were in Moo2. Though now since there is only one missile, one directfirebeamweapon, one bomb, refinement will make the equivelents ot graviton beam, phasor, etc etc.
Will you quit contradicting yourself! First you say lets be creative and think of lots of weapons, then you say we only need one in each area. Make up your mind! If we have only one weapon in each area, THE GAME WILL BE BORING!! I am sure there are a lot of people that look forward to the new tech. What will we have to look forward to with your idea? The next mod? BORING!!

Another point, to make the laser useable in the end game, you would have to do a lot of refining and the rifining would have to be good. This goes against your earlier arguement. I'll quote it for you:
utilae wrote:
Ranos wrote:Laser Mk1: Damage 6, Cost 4, Space 5. Modifiers activated: None
Laser Mk2: Damage 8, Cost 5, Space 5. Modifiers activated: None
Laser Mk3: Damage 10, Cost 6, Space 5. Modifiers activated: Long Range: Cost increase: 2, space increase : 1, range x1.5
Laser Mk4: Damage 12, Cost 7, Space 5, 2x fire rate. Modifiers activated: None
Laser Mk5: Damage 14, Cost 8, Space 5, 2x fire rate. Modifiers activated: Continuous fire: Cost increase: 3, space increase : 2, fire duration x1.5
Laser Mk6: Damage 16, Cost 9, Space 5, 2x fire rate. Modifiers activated: None
Laser Mk7: Damage 18, Cost 10, Space 5, 3x fire rate. Modifiers activated: Armor Piercing: Cost Increase: 5, space increase : 3, 60% chance to pierce armor on hit

This system seems flawed, because you get too many benefits for refining lasers by one level. So people are not gonna care about getting bigger ships to hold more lasers, when they just need to refine the lasers.
Too many benfits with each refinement in the above qoute and yet now you want to make lasers usable in later game.

Refinements should be nothing more than what I have said before, a way to make your current weapons better until the next one comes along. You say you want more diversity, then why don't you respond to my suggestion involving all of the weapons and areas I listed? You seem to have gone from diversity to simplicity in one post.

If refinements are done the way you suggest, I'd be willing to bet that 75% of the people actively posting would get bored and leave.

Personally, I really don't want this discussion (not the topic, utilae's idea) to go any further. The best way to end it is to ask if anyone else thinks this is a good idea. So here's the question or statement rather:

Does anyone else reading and/or participating in this thread think that utilae's idea would be fun? Do you think it would be utterly boring? Post your response and please say why.
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#98 Post by MisterMerf »

Utilae wrote:
Ranos wrote: The problem is, you can't. You can use refinements to improve the tech that you currently have, but you would still need to eventually research the new tech. I would research the refinements so that my weapons or armor or shields or whatever else will be refinable would be more powerful until I was able to research the new tech.
Maybe, you may do that. But the *ability* to refine forever should be there. We just have to figure out how to make it work. Because when we do make it work, and it is balanced and perfect, it will be very satisfying, plus it will be fun and add some spice.
I'm starting to see the light now. Two paths:

1) Refinements are limited to 5 or 10 levels. In this case, Ranos is absolutely correct. At some point, the lower level weapon will simply fail to cut muster in damage output. This sytem forces you to eventually abandon some or all of your lower weapons. Also, the only reason to skip refining would be if you don't plan to use a particular weapon.

2) Unlimited refinements: Put on a subexponential scale or some such, you can continuously improve your chosen weapons. If we get creative like Utilae, we can have a ton of interesting weapons that remain viable in some sense throughout the game. As you research new weapons (if you choose to) you get more tactical options in battle.

Ranos and Utilae: You slowly seem to be approaching the same place, differing in the details. 1) and 2) above are starting to resemble each other. The difference is names.

Examples of the two different, but basically the same styles:

Ranos ->
Lasers - Refinable to level 5. After that, you get the Phaser as a replacement, refinable itself to level 5. Phaser has a touch of shield penetration, too.

Utilae ->
Lasers - Refinable Forever.
Phasers - A separate weapon that maybe does shield penetration and retards shield regeneration.

If refinements could cause the name of a weapon to change, then the two styles would /could end of basically the same. Beyond that, it's a question of variety.

I favor Utilae's version with one twist (hat's off to Ranos): the names changing at some point as the techs get refined. That way, there's an atmosphere of "progress". And you can still design other higher-tech weapons that do funny things like short range damage + EMP side effects.

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#99 Post by MisterMerf »

Okay, Ranos rant appeared before I finished the last post... long, but I toss this pronouncement in:
Ranos wrote: Personally, I really don't want this discussion (not the topic, utilae's idea) to go any further. The best way to end it is to ask if anyone else thinks this is a good idea.
Ranos, the system is evolving. Utilae is just proposing a system where every new weapon also has a new purpose. Not too different from where you were at two posts ago.
Edit: The refinement system by Utilae that you quoted is probably a bit obsolete at this point. Please don't respond to this post by attacking it again.

THE ONLY REAL DIFFERENCE IS THE NAME, as noted above.

Utilae DOES supply a reason to get new weapons: new tactics.
As I suggsted, infinite refinements could simulate limited refinements by changing names every 10 levels. If you're that hung up on making the same weapon, only stronger, a "new tech" then that wouldn't bother me any either. It just makes the system a tad more complicated.

As long as we've got variety and there's a feeling of technological progress, I'm happy. I certainly don't think Utilae is trying to lead FreeOrion to its doom.
Last edited by MisterMerf on Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#100 Post by Ranos »

@MisterMerf

I am sure you were writing your post at the time I just made my last post so you probably didn't see what I wrote. Maybe you are reading now and will edit your post to compensate but I suggest reading it. Same tech and just refinemnt = boring.

We were going along the same lines for the most part until utilae's last post in which he jumped completely away from my line.

[EDIT]

You got your second post off while I was writing the first part of this.
MisterMerf wrote:Ranos, the system is evolving. Utilae is just proposing a system where every new weapon also has a new purpose. Not too different from where you were at two posts ago.
It was evolving, now its mutating. Utilae is proposing a system where there is only one weapon in each branch that you refine forever. I have not changed my opinion. I would like it if new weapons did more things but I think there should be new weapons. Each weapon should have its own unique characteristics, but they should not be as powerful as the next weapon in line.

You would have your choice of Fusion Cannon, Laser and Mass Driver. Each has its ups and its downs. Fusion Cannon does more damage but has a short range. Laser does less damage but has long range. Mass Driver does more damage and has moderate range but a limited ammount of ammunition. The techs that follow in each branch/area/field/whatever you want to call it would have different charactersistics.
MisterMerf wrote:Edit: The refinement system by Utilae that you quoted is probably a bit obsolete at this point. Please don't respond to this post by attacking it again.
Which refinement system is that? I quoted two that he has suggested.
MisterMerf wrote:Utilae DOES supply a reason to get new weapons: new tactics.
As I suggsted, infinite refinements could simulate limited refinements by changing names every 10 levels. If you're that hung up on making the same weapon, only stronger, a "new tech" then that wouldn't bother me any either. It just makes the system a tad more complicated.
At the end of his post, he suggests having only one weapon in each branch and having it refine forever. That I am against. Utilae's idea changed as his post went on. There is nothing wrong with that, I just don't like his final idea.

It may be stupid to you and everyone else for all I know, but I prefer to see a "new tech" in the tech tree than a single button that always says refine on it. I don't want the weapon to only be stronger, I want it to have it's own unique characteristics that give it its own personality. People could make the decision to keep the older weapon. There could be different mounts like in MOO3 if you've played it that would allow the weapon to do more damage and be more viable later on. At some point though, you will have to give it up.
MisterMerf wrote:As long as we've got variety and there's a feeling of technological progress, I'm happy. I certainly don't think Utilae is trying to lead FreeOrion to its doom.
Variety to me is multiple different weapons that do their own things, as I've said, not the same weapon that we can make do multiple different things. They may sound the same, but to me, they are very different. I also don't think utilae is leading FO to its doom, it is just my opinion that he has a bad idea. Now I hope I don't see any attacks against me for the bad idea remark because it is in no way an attack on utilae, it is just my opinion, which I am entitled to.

Also, my last post wasn't a rant. Neither is this one. It is an arguement against an idea that I dislike. If that is something not allowed in these forums, then I am asking a moderator to let me know. Utilae's posts have been arguements for an idea that he does like. In this way, I don't see how anything I did was different from what he did.

Maybe I went to far with some of what I said and if I did, then I am sorry. I am a very opinionated person and I have no problem stating my opinion. I try not to take that too far and, again, if i did, I am sorry.
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Impaler
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#101 Post by Impaler »

I am still in favor of having early game weapons usfull through the whole game. I think 2 things are needed though.

1 - Counter-Tecnologies - For example at the mid game you could discover "Polarized Shields" which take half damage from Lasers (this could actualy be a Modifer on shieds if we prefer). If your using an All laser Fleet and your oponent slaps these new Shields on his fleet your going to be in a world of hurt. This will discourage the All your Eggs in one Basket style of research/ship construction.

2 - Gradualy rising limits on Max Refinment levels - Again this works to keep you from putting all your eggs in one basket because the Basket simply isnt large enough. In the Eearly game Laser can only be refined up to level 3 or something, you need to go reserch other things like Ion Cannons, Missle and perhaps Nutronimum Armor to raise up your overall Tec level and alow more refinment. Thus its going to be impossible to refine Laser up the Ying Yang without ever reseraching another weapon system.

Optional 3 - Free Refinment - Their could be several mechanisms for Free Refinment. Some interesting ideas for posted by Drek and I about "battle Refinment" inwhich experience in battle gives you free points towards the next level of refinment even if your not activly reserching it. Esentialy all Devices are being Refined all the time, the player activly chossing to reserch a refinment is just having a bunch of scientist add their efforts to the project. All manor of things could give the player free refinment points such as Building ships, exploring anchient ruins, trading with other races ect ect.
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Geoff the Medio
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#102 Post by Geoff the Medio »

I haven't read this thread in detail, but the concept of weapons being better for new strategic reasons, rather than just being bigger and more powerful has come up. This has been proposed and discussed before.

Possible implimentations include having individual weapon types and armour types (and possibly hull types or other ship characteristics) tweaked to have different strengths and weaknesses to eachother in a more-complicated version of rock-paper-scissors. Thus you might have lasers that are strong against armour plating, but weak against ablative armour, but weak against shielding but great against only point-defences, and missiles that are great against ablative, but weak against point defences or fighters used for defence or shields, and mass drivers that are great against defensive fighters or point defence but weak against shields or armour plating, etc, etc.

A variation on this is for weapons to have damage types, such as explosive, kinetic, energy, chemical, psychic/psionic, etc, as well as delivery mechanisms such as direct fire beam, indirect guided, indirect ballistic, matter spray, etc. A given weapon would be a comination of these (though some don't make much sense obviously), and would fit in with armours in an advanced RPS web as above.

The main benefit of researching new weapon types and armour types would be that they might give you a combination of strengths and weaknesses that gives a strategic advantage in terms of having fewer weaknesses and more strengths against the set of component types that a particular enemy is using, compared to your previous components. Eg. your initial options of armour plate and ablative plate might be weak to either lasers or mass drivers respectively, but if you develop energy shielding which are strong against both, you'd have an advantage against an enemy using either lasers or mass drivers (though you'd be weak to something else to compensate... maybe chemical attacks or somesuch).

If every race had every technology, things could be balanced with a system such at this that all techs work out to be nearly functionally equal, like how rock, paper and scissors are just the same thing rotated around the wheel. But in practice, empires would have to pick a certain set of techs to research, giving them a particular set of other techs they are strong and weak against, until they develop other newer techs to compensate (which would have their own set of weaknesses and strengths as well). The choice of weapon/armour tech would be a bit like a chess game, where you can use one tech to get your oppoenent to use a particular other tech, only to surprise them with a counterchoice that bests their response to your original, and so forth... (idealized, obviously... but hopefully realizable).

In any case, whether something like the above is implimented or not, please don't only consider systems in which weapons have simple power ratings, or only ratings vs. shields or armour. Things can be made much more interesting than this. The system doesn't necessarily have to be made complicated either... but it should be kept in mind as a possibility.

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utilae
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#103 Post by utilae »

Ranos wrote: The fun for me is seeing that new weapon showing up in my tech area and looking forward to the turn I can finally mount it on my ships. I see no fun in continuosly clicking the refine button and knowing that in two turns when this refinement is done, I can click it again to refine to the next level.
Is it really that fun though, when you have laser, then the next one is fusion cannon (oh thats just like laser but enveloping), then graviton beam (oh does more damage). I would just like to remove the redundant weapons, which are too similar and make them refinements of each other. To replace the weapons that were removed, I want to think up some completely new ones, that look and act completly different.
Ranos wrote: Again, this makes it pointless to have any other weapons. To get the area effect, all you do is make this a mod of the Laser.
Sure, with your logic we could make a mod for every type of weapon effect possible, not bother researching weapons at all, and just design them in the ship design screen. :P
Ranos wrote: Will you quit contradicting yourself! First you say lets be creative and think of lots of weapons, then you say we only need one in each area. Make up your mind! If we have only one weapon in each area, THE GAME WILL BE BORING!! I am sure there are a lot of people that look forward to the new tech. What will we have to look forward to with your idea? The next mod? BORING!!
THe game is boring when you have laser, then research fusion cannon, then graviton beam, then phasor, then nuetron cannon, etc (not in order). All these weapons look the same but are a different colour and do more damage then the last. Maybe some have longer range.

All I want to do, is take these redundant repeats of weapons and make them refinements of a single beam weapon for example. We can easily think up very strange and original weapons to repalce the ones that are now refinements. These new weapons will also be expanded thru refinements, so we get more weapons.
Ranos wrote: Refinements should be nothing more than what I have said before, a way to make your current weapons better until the next one comes along. You say you want more diversity, then why don't you respond to my suggestion involving all of the weapons and areas I listed? You seem to have gone from diversity to simplicity in one post.
If refinements are just to tide you over until the next weapon (that looks the same but is a different colour, more damage) then the entire system has not reached the potential that I am trying to describe. It would be nothing more than researching shields 1, shields 2, etc.

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#104 Post by Ranos »

Impaler wrote:I am still in favor of having early game weapons usfull through the whole game. I think 2 things are needed though.
At this point, I am seeing three different ways of doing weapons tech.

1) You start the game with two or three basic weapons. You can refine these until the next weapon becomes available. The next weapon is better, stronger, different. Just because it is a new tech or we name it the same as techs used by other games, doen't mean it has to be exactly the same. This system allows for stronger armor and shields as the game goes on.

2) You start the game with two or three basic weapons which you refine throughout the game. As you refine them, they evolve and change and become new weapons. There will be a few other new weapon techs that must be researched and which act completely different than the base weapons. This system also allows for stronger armor and shields as the game goes on. I have a thought on this which is a cross between my way and utilae's way. I'll elaborate more later in this post.

3) You start the game with two or three basic weapons. You are able to research more weapons, but the original weapons are never obsolete. You continuosly refine all weapons so they gain in strength. This system merely makes the new weapons have new capabilities. To be able to allow the original weapons to be useable late game, there must either be lots of refining or armor, shields, etc. cannot get much stronger. If they did, weapons would have to get stronger and the refinement would become so insane, the game would get boring.

Now, here is my idea of cross breeding utilea's and my ideas. There are different weapons types which have different characteristics. Here's a list:
Beam (Direct Fire) - A sustained beam of energy is fired at the target. Due to the requirements of sustaining the energy, damage is not high.
Bolt (Direct Fire) - A bolt of energy is fired at the target. Damage is high due to the concentrated nature of the energy.
Projectile (Direct Fire) - A solid projectile of some kind is fired at the target. Damage is moderate and does not disipate over distance. Ammunition is limited.
Subspace (Direct Fire Area Effect) - A weapon that travels through and/or effects subspace. These weapons can cause very high damage, but due to their unpredictable nature, can cause damage to the ship on which they are mounted.
Wave (Area Effect) - A weapon that creates a wave of energy that expands as it travels from the ship. It does moderate damage, but can cause damage to freindly ships if they get in the way. Some weapons are directional, some expand in all directions from the ship. (Think shockwave)
Missiles (Indirect Fire) - A large, self propelled projectile with homing capabilities. They are capable of doing moderate to high damage. They are limited by a limited ammount of fuel and ammo.
Torpedos (Indirect Fire) - A large ammount of energy of some kind contained within an energy field That does severe damage. Their range is not as great as Missiles due to the fact that the energy field dissipates over distance. There is no ammunition since these are charged within the ship. Reload time is longer than that of missiles.
Add to this if you can think of more.

I'll use beams as an example. You start out with Lasers. You must research refinements to make lasers stronger. At some point, one of your refinements unlocks the key to a new beam technology: Phasors. When this occurs, lasers can no longer be refined. Researching these costs more than refinements due to the new nature of the energy being used. Once researched, phasors can be refined until the next new beam energy is discovered.

Does that make sense? It allows for the wide variety of techs and the refinement of the tech types until the new tech of that type is discovered. This gives a reason why techs have to be refined, but also gives the feel of having new techs to discover. And maybe you have to have researched Beam and Bolt techs to aa certain level before you are able to research the basic Wave tech. Any suggestions on changes to be made utilae?
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MisterMerf
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#105 Post by MisterMerf »

Ranos wrote: I'll use beams as an example. You start out with Lasers. You must research refinements to make lasers stronger. At some point, one of your refinements unlocks the key to a new beam technology: Phasors. When this occurs, lasers can no longer be refined. Researching these costs more than refinements due to the new nature of the energy being used. Once researched, phasors can be refined until the next new beam energy is discovered.
I like it.
I would be willing to go with this OR with a more Utilae-like system.

Ranos: Thanks for giving us a more solid example to look at. It's very helpful.

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