What is the deal with starlanes?

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dizos
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What is the deal with starlanes?

#1 Post by dizos » Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:01 pm

Does anyone else hate them? I find that they detract from the strategic development of territory. Are they going to be optional?

-- Dizos

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pd
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#2 Post by pd » Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:21 pm

please use the search function next time, thanks.

viewtopic.php?t=435&

viewtopic.php?t=138&

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Ablaze
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#3 Post by Ablaze » Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:43 pm

We should have a stickied thread, something like "I know you don't like starlanes, but LIVE WITH IT SUCKA!"

Simple answer: Simply simplify, for the sake of AI.
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Aquitaine
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#4 Post by Aquitaine » Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:48 pm

The short answer is: without starlanes, there is no 'territory.' It's just blobs, all acessible from each other.

The key to strategic wargaming is to have a strategic map. You can't have one without pathways; there is no terrain, no maginot line, no crossing the Alps, no nothing. You and I might be able to 'make' strategic locations based on the value of strategic targets, but the AI can't.
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Geoff the Medio
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#5 Post by Geoff the Medio » Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:54 pm

My own opinon on the matter notwithstanding, I made a few entries in the FAQ page on the wiki about this a couple months ago...

http://www.freeorion.org/wiki/index.php ... _starlanes?

(Not that it's really much of a FAQ page at this point... nor that there's actually a link to it anywhere... not that there should be given how lacking of FAQs it is anyway...)

dizos
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#6 Post by dizos » Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:07 pm

Sorry for the new guy old subject hassle.

Thanks for the reply. I tried searching for starlanes first and got a ton of threads, but all ones I went through just took starlanes as an accepted feature. I hadn't made it to the ones you provided.

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Aquitaine
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#7 Post by Aquitaine » Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:09 pm

No problem. There's a lot of information to soak up around here. :) Welcome to FreeOrion.
Surprise and Terror! I am greeted by the smooth and hostile face of our old enemy, the Hootmans! No... the Huge-glands, no, I remember, the Hunams!

Master of Orion III
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what about jump gates that use time warp from moo2

#8 Post by Master of Orion III » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:25 pm

is a good start to be there in a one turn,but nut requring starlanes
one jump gate entry and one jump gate exit, instant jump from one
star sistem to other star sistem with out of nead of the starlanes
but that starlans are inportant i now,so lets make jump gates
for free orion very rare think maybe 4 star sistem that have
2 way conection but not linked to the grid that is called the starlans
the 4 star sistems to the rest 466 in one 500 galaxy is very rare
think,but only jump gates go from starlanes sistem to other with out
you are stuck on the sistem,on the other hand if the sistem has on
one side one jump entry and exit, and other star sistem has also the same but oposide like jump gate exit and jump gate entry than ce be 2 way sistem :D

like so

1 jump gate entry jump gate entry 2
1 jump gate exit x jump gate exit 2

but there is a problem only one jump gate an be used at a time
that both cross in the x :D
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Master of Orion III
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not hunams

#9 Post by Master of Orion III » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:28 pm

terrans aka humans,home sapiens,i belong to a evoled form of them
a total new race ,advaced home sapians,member of the race called
the atlanteans,peace and prosperity my friend may the brothers of
light are on your side :D
Antaren x ovnership

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Prokonsul Piotrus
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#10 Post by Prokonsul Piotrus » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:33 pm

Aquitaine wrote:The short answer is: without starlanes, there is no 'territory.' It's just blobs, all acessible from each other.

The key to strategic wargaming is to have a strategic map. You can't have one without pathways; there is no terrain, no maginot line, no crossing the Alps, no nothing. You and I might be able to 'make' strategic locations based on the value of strategic targets, but the AI can't.
Yes, this is the truth behind the starlanes - and anyway, atm it is what we have and it is the only way of movement untill ~1.0. Just take a look at poor AI in Stars! to see how it cannot chose any targets in such an enviroment.

But then, who plays against AI (for long)? It is the multiplayer that counts. So I wonder - after 1.0 (or perhaps sonner?) do you think we can implement other movement types? I worry that by programing 'only starlanes and nothing else' engine we may make it very difficult to implement other movement types later (which would be a great and terrible loss IMHO).
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Aquitaine
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#11 Post by Aquitaine » Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:16 pm

It will be difficult to implement other types later, unless you had no AI in your MP game at all; then we could probably just switch them off (or pretend as though every system has a lane to every other system and not display them). But to re-write the AI so that it will work without starlanes...that will be just as difficult after 1.0 as it would be now.

As far as I'm concerned, the official release of FO will always have starlanes and never support a 'no starlanes' AI. That said, if something happens down the road to make this practical and desireable (as even without the AI issue, I just don't think a strategy map where everything is completely accessible is a good idea) then we can reconsider it.
Surprise and Terror! I am greeted by the smooth and hostile face of our old enemy, the Hootmans! No... the Huge-glands, no, I remember, the Hunams!

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#12 Post by Ranos » Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:35 am

@ MoOIII

If I remember correctly, what I am about to ask is a forum rule, but I could be wrong. Please use better grammer when you are writing. Capital letters and periods would have made those posts much easier to read. I Honestly didn't even read them because there was no punctuation.
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#13 Post by iamrobk » Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:39 am

I disagree with saying that starlanes definse territory. I don't see how they define territory, other than they can provide a chokepoint or something. If we want to define territory, we should go along with sectors int he game (there is a topic somewhere here.....).

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solartrix
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#14 Post by solartrix » Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:08 am

I HATE the starlanes with a passion. They're ugly and confusing and distract from the beauty of the galaxy map. I was hoping to get in with the programming team and create an option for NONE in the galaxy set-up.

I don't understand how this could be such an AI issue. My impression from MOO3 was that the devs wanted a way to provide "choke points" to make it easier to maintain and defend a specific front. That's a great idea, but IMO they totally botched it (along with most the rest of the game).

I think this could easily be done with a little more thought to the galaxy generation system. Essentially, build your galaxy, then go remove or reposition a several stars to make natural choke points.

Or, you could make transport times proportional to the square of the distance between two stars. So that two stars two lightyears apart take 4 "stardrive turns" and that stars 3 lightyears apart take 9 stardrive turns, 4 take 16 and so on - this would allow for natural chokepoints or fastest ways through star clusters. Say stardrive technology somehow works on the gravity between stars (??).

Either of these (and perhaps other) ideas would allow us to get rid of starlanes and make it just as easy to program the AI. Someone please tell me this issue is not closed...

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utilae
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#15 Post by utilae » Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:29 am

There are three terrain elements we could possibly have in FreeOrion (that I could think of):
-Starlanes
-Open space (for ai reasons open space is an invisible starlane with the speed moved down to slowerThanStarlane)
-Nebula (open space with an effect, eg slow movement)

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