Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:11 pm
I really like Impalers system so I felt like giving him some support here. I see there's two arguments against it here, too complex and too limiting.
"you design your hulls and then you can design ships out of these hulls like in stars! with slots that different stuff go into. Basically, ship design works as in Stars! but you can make your own hulls".
Now that doesn't sound very complex when you just put it in a single sentence. It's rather simple but he added a lot of ideas on how different details would be done. In any system you would need to do this anyway so they will sound just as complex. For example, moo1 system feels very simple but if you explain all the little details of it that explanation is going to be pretty "complex" too. I hope my point get's through here.
Secoundly, I think ship design is the one area in 4x games that a more complex system can be good. It's a truly macro management part of the game so it doesn't add any micro with the complexity unlike for example a more complex planet managing system. On the other hand the system must still be pretty newbie friendly. The best way to handle this problem is to make the system seem simple at first but not for the experienced player. This could be done by limiting the options at low tech levels for example, so the beginner doesn't need to do so much in the first stages of the game. A good tutorial also helps of course.
The thing that can make ship designing a pain is if you need to do it too oftenly. For example, you get a new weapon and hull every other turn that obsoletes your previous stuff forcing you to upgrade all the time. The beauty of impalers system is that it's a two layer system. You design only a few hulls during the entire game. You then make different designs out of these hulls during the game, adding different weapons and modules. I also really like the researching your hulls and maybe even designs until you can use them as it makes not designing a new ships for every new cup holder you research a much better option. There was this comment:
Now for the second argument against Impalers idea (or more the general star! system). That it's limiting. First of, the idea was that you would get to do a few hulls but not as many as you want (limited by research, not har limits). So you get to choose for example to have your battleship designs with lots of guns, lots of armor, cheap or whatever. You then make different design's limited by the limits you strategically choosed. Limits, as in you can put more guns then the other player on your ships but he can put more electronics etc, are very good as they add a lot of strategy.
If you just pile in stuff into your ships as you wan't then there's not much strategy involved and more of just doing the good old cookie cutter design putting in whatever makes your ships more effective. Notice that I think here that more strategy is when you need to adapt you strategy around different limits. For example if I have 2 weapon slots and 1 electronics slot I get to make two strategic decisions instead of one, first wich kind of weapon I put in then what kind of electronic stuff I put in. If I just had 3 slots I could put in whatever I wanted (no limits) it is very likely that the best option is just to put in 3 weapons, eliminating the interesting decision on what electronic component I wanted. What I am saying here is that you are forced to choose from a bunch of stuff that you would otherwise not consider. So that stuff is useful and gives you more options. Yes, limits actually adds options in this case.
Then when designing ships there's no reason we can't have a general purpose slot that you could put in anything you want when you choose your slots. It would of course be more expensive then special purpose slots. So you could choose to give yourself flexibility when making the hull, at the cost of making yourself less powerful.
This is just an opinion without any motivation at all. First of all I think you get this feeling becouse Impaler did a very detailed explanation of his thoughts. For example, if he had just said:Yes, a limit on ship designs sucks. Also, Impaler, your system does appear very complex. I think anything more than a list based system is bad.
"you design your hulls and then you can design ships out of these hulls like in stars! with slots that different stuff go into. Basically, ship design works as in Stars! but you can make your own hulls".
Now that doesn't sound very complex when you just put it in a single sentence. It's rather simple but he added a lot of ideas on how different details would be done. In any system you would need to do this anyway so they will sound just as complex. For example, moo1 system feels very simple but if you explain all the little details of it that explanation is going to be pretty "complex" too. I hope my point get's through here.
Secoundly, I think ship design is the one area in 4x games that a more complex system can be good. It's a truly macro management part of the game so it doesn't add any micro with the complexity unlike for example a more complex planet managing system. On the other hand the system must still be pretty newbie friendly. The best way to handle this problem is to make the system seem simple at first but not for the experienced player. This could be done by limiting the options at low tech levels for example, so the beginner doesn't need to do so much in the first stages of the game. A good tutorial also helps of course.
The thing that can make ship designing a pain is if you need to do it too oftenly. For example, you get a new weapon and hull every other turn that obsoletes your previous stuff forcing you to upgrade all the time. The beauty of impalers system is that it's a two layer system. You design only a few hulls during the entire game. You then make different designs out of these hulls during the game, adding different weapons and modules. I also really like the researching your hulls and maybe even designs until you can use them as it makes not designing a new ships for every new cup holder you research a much better option. There was this comment:
Again, this is just an unmotivated gut feeling I think. Realism and such isn't worth considering but if that comment is refering to researching a design being unrealistic I really disagree as there's a LOT of development and engineering involved in making new vehicle models in the real world. Just becouse you know how to make all the engines, tires, steering-wheels etc doesn't mean you can immedietly have a new car model. Isn't that obvious?You already researched all of the necessary parts for the design, why do you now have to research the design itself.
Now for the second argument against Impalers idea (or more the general star! system). That it's limiting. First of, the idea was that you would get to do a few hulls but not as many as you want (limited by research, not har limits). So you get to choose for example to have your battleship designs with lots of guns, lots of armor, cheap or whatever. You then make different design's limited by the limits you strategically choosed. Limits, as in you can put more guns then the other player on your ships but he can put more electronics etc, are very good as they add a lot of strategy.
If you just pile in stuff into your ships as you wan't then there's not much strategy involved and more of just doing the good old cookie cutter design putting in whatever makes your ships more effective. Notice that I think here that more strategy is when you need to adapt you strategy around different limits. For example if I have 2 weapon slots and 1 electronics slot I get to make two strategic decisions instead of one, first wich kind of weapon I put in then what kind of electronic stuff I put in. If I just had 3 slots I could put in whatever I wanted (no limits) it is very likely that the best option is just to put in 3 weapons, eliminating the interesting decision on what electronic component I wanted. What I am saying here is that you are forced to choose from a bunch of stuff that you would otherwise not consider. So that stuff is useful and gives you more options. Yes, limits actually adds options in this case.
Then when designing ships there's no reason we can't have a general purpose slot that you could put in anything you want when you choose your slots. It would of course be more expensive then special purpose slots. So you could choose to give yourself flexibility when making the hull, at the cost of making yourself less powerful.